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um

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[Music]

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what's up everybody

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for joining us

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happy friday

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[Music]

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i got another

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new intro here for you as you can see

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this is

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record timing this one i literally

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started

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30

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was supposed to begin that's a record

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for me

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as far as uh just being

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late but you know

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it's getting easier to do especially

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with these computers these days you're

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tapping around keys you know a couple

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keys

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you know to play the piano

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the world is your oyster on a computer

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for better for worse

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that is for sure uh but today

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we have a phenomenal uh guest uh for you

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james tony

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awesome guy hopefully i said his last

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name right i'm pretty terrible with last

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names so

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i'll let him fix it if i said

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uh but the phenomenal guy he's like um

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he does pretty much everything he paints

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he writes and he talks he you know

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had like a life change switched from

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you know doing what the world would

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consider serious studies academic

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studies and and you know went for

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seemingly his passion which

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you know i'm i'm always envious of

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people who do that and find success

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um as you know

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i think to some extent that's what we'd

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all like to do so

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um

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first we'll bring on someone you're very

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familiar with

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mr j christopher king how are you sir

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doing really well sean it's great to see

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you again uh second time this week

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uh which means it's a it's a banner week

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for for me

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it's great to see that's right for you

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great great to see you and great to see

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folks in the chat

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like our uh uh mr rindahl who we were

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with on wednesday it's great to see

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laura and others over there that's one

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water lily

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sun saver disclosure team

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absolutely um how have you been you good

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yeah i'm pretty good it's great we have

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a uh a noon show i you know to be quite

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honest with you i like noon i like even

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earlier uh because i get up you know

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pretty early so you know i still have

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some energy at this point in the day

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usually when it gets to you know mid

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afternoon late afternoon i start kind of

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you know my brain isn't as creative and

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it starts shutting down and you know

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that kind of thing

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yeah i'm yeah i'm kind of a reformed

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night owl myself and so like i'm like

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starting to shift from like falling

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asleep at 2 a.m

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to trying to get you know back before

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midnight some nights and um i used to be

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even later than that i used to not go to

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sleep until dawn and so

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meeting somebody like you that and

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hanging out um

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you know connecting with you by text and

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stuff like that it's it's amazing

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because some days i'll recognize that

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you've been up for even though you're

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you're in a later

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uh uh right time

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than i am like realizing that i woke up

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and you're like you've already been up

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for two hours it's crazy to me

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you've like walked a dog you've like

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been you've been visiting a body of

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water already you know right that's like

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barely ambling out of bed

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to be fair that's what i do the first

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thing i do is go drive to the lake every

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morning so you know that's easy to do

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but uh we have a wonderful guest on

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today that i know we're both excited to

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speak with absolutely

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i know you you've prepared a wonderful

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intro although i don't want to put you

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on the spot if you woke up late today

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no

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james tunney is an irish barrister

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that's means he's a lawyer uh james

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tunney is an irish barrister author and

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artist who now lives in gothenburg

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sweden among other works he's recently

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written the mystery of the trapped light

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tech bondage and the mystical accord his

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wide-ranging thought has been documented

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for years with his many notable

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appearances on jeffrey mishlov's new

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thinking aloud this is his first time on

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witness citizen

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james it's great to have you here on the

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show today

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uh great to meet you thank you for for

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having me sean and jay

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funny

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money

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honey

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bunny tony there we go

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absolutely

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it's great to meet you and thanks for

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having us on i look forward to the

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conversation

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yeah i mean it's my pleasure i first saw

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you on um new thinking aloud um and i

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wanted to get ahold of you right away

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because for a couple reasons at first i

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just loved your energy

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um and you were talking about uh

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fatima and

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you know my family's from portugal or

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whatever so any and you just seemed

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really knowledgeable on that but i got

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to be honest with you like the more

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i looked into you and and the types of

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stuff you got into like

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your universe is so large that just you

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know relegating a conversation and that

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kind of seemed a little silly to be

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quite honest with you but

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we can't but we will touch on that but i

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guess the first thing i wanted to start

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with is

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it seemed like you know

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you were you were pretty serious into

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academia

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um you were conducting uh i think

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lectures discussions writing papers

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um doing uh pretty well in in that

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aspect of your life and then it seemed

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like you kind of took a detour where you

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went searching

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uh maybe for the science the spiritual

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aspect mysticism aspect that you're

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interested in so my first question is um

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what

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take that detour

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and you know since then uh are you

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satisfied with you know

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the way your life has been turning out

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in doing that uh well yes to the the

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last bit um

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maybe to contextualize i i qualified in

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dublin and studied and i qualified for

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the bar i became a barrister i studied

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in in london i tried to look at new

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areas areas of law that weren't very

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well developed there were future areas

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like at that stage it was anti-trust law

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eu law communication technology law it

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was all these kind of edgy areas

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intellectual property i was very

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interested

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in it wasn't big at the time

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so i was always interested in the next

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thing and so i tried to be innovative

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when i

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went off to spain for a couple years and

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then i started teaching a lecture and

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senior lecturer and i was a visiting

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professor in various places so i tried

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to find the areas which were growing and

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which were global because i recognized

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that there had been a shift from

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national legal systems to international

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systems and i wanted to see what was

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happening it was a very kind of growth

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period

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um and so i became interested in areas a

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lot of people are not very familiar with

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like travel and tourism law and

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indigenous people and the law and i

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followed areas that were of interest to

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me and that was because

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i was good at analytical things some

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kind of left-sided brain but

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it was difficult to get back the balance

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right be creative because a lot of

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lawyers are not necessarily creative

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that's not the good so they're good at

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detail the other things they begin to

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it becomes blurred they're not

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interested in creativity although

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there's plenty of scope for creativity

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so i wouldn't over generalize it

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so um

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there was i came to a stage where i

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realized that the right side of the

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brain or to put in simple terms wasn't

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catered for and it was beginning to have

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some kind of

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kind of uh mystical experiences or you

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do

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they are or dreams or that

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one recognizes as important or can't

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really interpret them so those things

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begin to nudge you and there was a few

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contexts for example

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uh the iraq war changed my view of what

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was happening what what the the

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difference between the narrative of what

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was happening international law and the

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reality and they were just

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irreconcilable

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that was one thing i saw i actually

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uh

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anticipated that a crash would come so

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that was a good time to sell me a little

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apartment in scotland so anyway there

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was a number of factors

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uh we decided to have a family

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move

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uh to sweden and i said i'm gonna

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concentrate on the other side

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look after the kids

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paint and write and see where it goes

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and in that context and this is an

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important principle for me in relation

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to the spiritual side

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a lot of people strive to do things they

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run after things they chase things they

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try and catch things but the spiritual

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traditions say it's really not about

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that it's about reception it's about

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emptying yourself so it's about opening

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up

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so by me going through certain processes

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and it was really releasing things as i

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can see releasing law releasing interest

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and starters because if you're going

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around with kids or looking after your

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kids and painting your status you know

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what do you do well like

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it's not on the radar screen of a lot of

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people so it's a very that's a very

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liberating thing in many senses if you

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approach it properly because then you

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can let go of any even if you're maybe

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you don't have expectations but you can

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let them go

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so i found that process of reception is

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very very important and as a result of

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that i began to receive things so

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before i was going to talk to you today

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a kind of an idea

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was coming up again and it was about the

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idea of an antenna

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that

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in many senses in spiritual terms we are

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receivers that's that that's what we are

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and

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the word antenna is also used in

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relation to photosynthesis in the cells

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that can process light

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so i became very interested in the idea

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of light and how it how it's in most

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spiritual experiences or it's there and

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00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:21,200
there are doubt

284
00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,399
and

285
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:24,880
so out of that that that idea of

286
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,360
developing yourself and a key idea of

287
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,519
spiritual evolution that basically has

288
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:31,360
been a failure of spiritual evolution

289
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:33,600
and that lies at the base of most of the

290
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,160
problems and without spiritual evolution

291
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:38,079
we're going nowhere so that was the

292
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:40,079
positive side if you like

293
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,959
and the dark side began to emerge it

294
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:44,560
wouldn't go away

295
00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:46,720
and which came brought me back to some

296
00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:48,399
of the ideas from

297
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:51,200
globalization was about the impact of

298
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,040
technology now

299
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,440
to put it in a nutshell

300
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:57,440
i believe in relation to technology that

301
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:58,480
we're being

302
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:00,560
turned into things that were being

303
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:04,639
turned into automatic uh parts of of a

304
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:06,800
big apparatus to to put it simply and

305
00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:09,440
that's been said by people like

306
00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:12,800
you well no no harare and uh that's part

307
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:15,440
of the agenda that's becoming clear and

308
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:17,600
i was kind of intuiting that

309
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:19,920
so we're moving from being spiritual

310
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:22,880
antenna to be an actual antennae

311
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:24,720
but that's the basis of a lot of what

312
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,200
the plan is if you look at patents in

313
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:29,760
relation to inserting things in our body

314
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:32,000
so i really believe that it is that

315
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,200
there is such a thing going on and in

316
00:12:38,629 --> 00:12:37,040
those areas

317
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:38,639
i became interested in personal

318
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:41,519
experiences uh and

319
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:43,519
i was in australia for if we were in

320
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,600
australia for a few months going around

321
00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:47,120
a tent sleeping on the ground i think

322
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,880
that that helped with certain we're

323
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,639
opening up your psyche when you're on

324
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:52,880
the ground uh

325
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:56,399
to get literally grounded um and

326
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,399
a number of things came

327
00:13:00,870 --> 00:13:00,000
to a stage where

328
00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:00,880
the

329
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:08,880
see er become effortless

330
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,519
in relation to its production and in

331
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,360
many ways and it was coming from a

332
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:15,360
different place so that made me go back

333
00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:17,120
and triangulate with the spiritual

334
00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:18,399
literature

335
00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:21,040
and to say well what are these are these

336
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:23,360
how these things being said

337
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:25,680
or to what extent are they consistent

338
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:27,519
they're reconcilable and that led me to

339
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:28,480
a kind of

340
00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:34,790
yeah i'm very happy

341
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:38,000
thank you thank you so much james um you

342
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,760
know i i appreciate what you're talking

343
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:41,680
about there in terms of the spiritual

344
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:43,760
antenna and of course this has been

345
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,440
commented on by many people and uh uh

346
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:49,519
in terms of the overlap between the

347
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,320
spiritual the ufological the paranormal

348
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:54,639
in general and how all those things

349
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,760
overlap which will lead us to the fatima

350
00:14:01,750 --> 00:13:59,519
case that we'd like to talk to and talk

351
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:01,760
about in a little bit you know i've i've

352
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,480
heard

353
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:04,880
people like diana pisoka jeff kreitball

354
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,839
jacques villa notably um speaking about

355
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:09,760
about both of these situations the

356
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:12,720
antenna and the fatima cases as and and

357
00:14:18,389 --> 00:14:15,199
yourself as well you know some could say

358
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,399
that the control system hypothesis put

359
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,399
forward by jacques valet and others

360
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:23,120
could be seen as an agnostic

361
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,720
interpretation

362
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:27,040
of what is seen in a religious framework

363
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:29,760
as the work of gods archangels angels

364
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:31,760
and other apparitions

365
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,399
briefly could you as a framework for

366
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:36,639
what we're getting into could you talk

367
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:37,600
about

368
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:39,440
you know what is the control system

369
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:40,880
hypothesis

370
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:43,600
uh in general terms and how do these

371
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:45,680
traditional religious and spiritual

372
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:49,440
frameworks overlap in interesting ways

373
00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:51,680
with that hypothesis

374
00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:53,680
um

375
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,079
the control system hypothesis is not

376
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:58,800
it's not really one that

377
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,959
i i could pronounce

378
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:02,800
upon but what

379
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:05,040
the way i would see is this

380
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:06,720
is that

381
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:07,920
the

382
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,760
tradition of spiritual experience and

383
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,760
mystical experience

384
00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:14,160
is well recorded it goes back through it

385
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:15,440
goes back

386
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:17,519
uh millennia

387
00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:22,000
it it came to a a change in the 1860s

388
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,480
with thomas huxley where they began to

389
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:26,240
take to want to take the spirit out of

390
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:27,360
the equation

391
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:29,199
and from the 1860s there was a

392
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:32,240
deliberate effort by science to dispirit

393
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,160
the process

394
00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:35,519
so

395
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,839
what was spiritual had to be

396
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,480
reconciled or had to be explained in

397
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,000
different forms

398
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:44,639
in the 1870s we had the growth

399
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,399
of the well in the context of a reaction

400
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,240
which was recorded or which was

401
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,160
indicated by books like the history of

402
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,480
supernatural 1863

403
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:56,160
we had a

404
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:57,839
growth in spiritualism which was a kind

405
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:00,720
of reaction to the scientific

406
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:04,160
exclusion of uh of spirit and and that

407
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,800
exclusion spirit was consistent with

408
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,480
the reformation

409
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,480
came from uh it was a continuation of

410
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:12,160
the reformation to some extent and a

411
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:14,720
shift to secular power and a shift in

412
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:17,440
the british empire itself to a new idea

413
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:19,519
that it was going to have a

414
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:22,720
a control an imperial control uh of the

415
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:25,279
globe in a global sense in a different

416
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:27,920
in a different context not based on on

417
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,240
military power and in many ways

418
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:32,480
the poem from

419
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:34,959
1745

420
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:37,759
around down 70 40 rule britannia ruled

421
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:40,399
britannia britannia rules the waves

422
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,399
ruling of the waves not just about the

423
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,079
sea it was about

424
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,399
the electromagnetic spectrum

425
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:48,959
so um the

426
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:51,199
what we have then is is a tension

427
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,959
between a scientific explanation and a

428
00:16:59,189 --> 00:16:56,800
what's called a supernatural explanation

429
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:59,199
now i don't i don't

430
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:01,199
refer to it necessarily supernatural but

431
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:03,279
that's what the distinction came and

432
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:05,360
this tension is even in

433
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,000
certain streams of the paranormal where

434
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,000
they won't use the supernatural they

435
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:12,160
want to draw a distinction because they

436
00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:14,160
will tolerate discussion about anything

437
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,480
which is mechanical which is capable of

438
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:18,480
explanation in terms of micro waves or

439
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:19,520
something like that but they won't

440
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,160
tolerate something which purports to

441
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:24,799
have some connection with the prior

442
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:27,039
the prior systems

443
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,760
so

444
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:29,520
this tension is there in relation to the

445
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:32,240
descriptions and i get around those uh

446
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,960
i'm not interested in in the

447
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:36,080
in that

448
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:37,760
those particular discourses particularly

449
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,840
because i don't have a dog in that game

450
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:40,640
my

451
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:47,120
pragmatism is based on things that work

452
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:50,000
and the effects of things so i i

453
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:51,600
describe myself in academic terms of

454
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:54,240
pragmatic cosmopolitan so

455
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:55,039
uh

456
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,720
what is that

457
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:59,520
viewpoint what happened and so so you're

458
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:01,520
interested jay in

459
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:03,919
experience i'm interested in experience

460
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,720
but

461
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:06,720
experience on this on its own is not

462
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,280
much use in many senses it's the effect

463
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:11,120
of the experience is the key

464
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:13,520
so i might have an experience a lot you

465
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,039
know all the different things but if it

466
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,280
doesn't affect me well then it's not as

467
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,600
valuable for me so that what i became

468
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:21,360
interested in is the

469
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,400
evidence of the subjective impact and

470
00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:26,080
how that has affected them this goes

471
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:27,720
back to the maslow and the

472
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:30,240
self-actualization theory and and where

473
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:31,360
people

474
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:33,039
are going with that so the tension is

475
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:34,240
still there

476
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,799
and now it's exacerbated because in my

477
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:37,679
view

478
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:41,120
a globalist movement wants to utilize or

479
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:43,280
it's going to utilize any force which

480
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:46,559
will exert pressure in favor of a global

481
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:49,120
response to issues and therefore are

482
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:50,960
going to be a distortion

483
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:54,400
uh an over reporting perhaps of

484
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:57,120
ufo phenomenon etc that's that's

485
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:58,720
consistent with the advance of the

486
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:01,200
military industrial complex so we get

487
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:04,160
into a similar issue to answer those

488
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:05,840
questions i would go back to the

489
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:08,400
historical the historical context where

490
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:10,640
all these things were seen as one that

491
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,400
there's a whole range of experience

492
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,320
whether it be ufos

493
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,039
or being struck by light or saint paul

494
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:19,679
on the road to damascus and the way we

495
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:21,520
approach them is from the individual

496
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:23,039
experience the phenomenology from the

497
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:24,160
individual experience and the

498
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:25,919
classification and the discourse and

499
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:28,640
that uh well it's for

500
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:30,480
academics scientists whatever to fight

501
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:32,240
among themselves

502
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:33,280
i don't know if that answers the

503
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:35,200
question jay if that's

504
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:36,400
no but it's

505
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:38,320
brilliant context i appreciate it thank

506
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:39,760
you so much

507
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:41,280
uh i

508
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:43,440
yeah i think that struck with me right

509
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:46,000
there uh you know in experiences

510
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:48,240
is no good really on its own it's it's

511
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,080
the effect that it has

512
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,039
on you and maybe it's be you know

513
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:55,600
because i'm a musician i consider myself

514
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:57,840
an artist because i only make original

515
00:20:01,029 --> 00:20:00,240
songs i always have for for 20 years you

516
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:01,039
know

517
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:04,000
um and i consider myself also bringing

518
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,840
it back a little you know to what you

519
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:07,600
were talking about at first somewhat of

520
00:20:12,149 --> 00:20:09,360
an antenna because i don't know where a

521
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:12,159
lot of these ideas or words

522
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:15,600
uh come from or you know my app to pick

523
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,320
a certain note or key you know and and

524
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,640
why that strikes me so much at the time

525
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:22,720
but um

526
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:24,559
yeah you know and it's interesting

527
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,120
because i've had experiences that

528
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:30,159
you know seemingly were odd but they

529
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:32,480
you know didn't have much effect on me

530
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:33,600
seemingly

531
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:34,559
um

532
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:38,320
but do you think that possibly sometimes

533
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:42,000
um effects from an experience could be

534
00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:43,120
so

535
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:45,360
low key or hidden for instance that they

536
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:46,320
kind of

537
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,120
you know mold some decisions you make

538
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:51,280
are the way you live without you really

539
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:52,640
necessarily

540
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:54,640
being cognizant of it

541
00:20:58,149 --> 00:20:56,400
yes uh and and

542
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,159
again if we think about philip k dick

543
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,760
for example um

544
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:02,480
in relation to he after all his he

545
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,799
looked at every theory available but he

546
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,640
didn't necessarily come to a final

547
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,320
conclusion about what it was but what

548
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:10,559
we're certain about is that it affected

549
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,360
him so we can clearly say that his

550
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,280
conduct and direction changed because of

551
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:17,360
it what it was

552
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:20,240
again he's he's quite good on leaving it

553
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,840
open which i think is a pragmatic

554
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:23,520
approach it could be this it could be

555
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:25,120
that it could be this could be it could

556
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:26,960
be open-minded so

557
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:29,360
not becoming too attached is important

558
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,360
i'll give you an example perhaps to

559
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:33,520
support the implication of what you're

560
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:35,120
saying is i remember having a very

561
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:37,840
significant dream so i woke up

562
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:38,720
and

563
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:43,120
answer was the rose garden

564
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:46,080
so i knew i had a strong feeling that

565
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:47,360
that was the answer to what i was

566
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:49,440
looking for the problem was

567
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:51,679
i didn't know the question the question

568
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,480
was

569
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:54,640
so then but this is this is there in the

570
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:57,280
literature and parseval and the round

571
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:58,960
table the knights of the round table is

572
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:00,960
the key thing is to ask the right

573
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:01,919
question

574
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:04,080
so uh it puts it in reverse so it's

575
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:06,080
paradoxical in that sense

576
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:07,760
so um

577
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:10,159
so that that's

578
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,520
it's effective the the other aspect of

579
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,080
uh and and you know jay from the context

580
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,480
of what you've explored in relation to

581
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,720
experiences is it's the impact of

582
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:22,320
something if you say well there's light

583
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,480
and i saw this strange light that's one

584
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:26,159
thing but if you saw a strange like that

585
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:28,000
affected you and i had an impact and it

586
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:29,919
was affective well then that's a

587
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:31,520
different thing i've defined that as

588
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,480
spiritual light that there is some force

589
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:36,400
which i i believe is spiritual light a

590
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,000
lot of the traditions

591
00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:40,320
described as so this describe the

592
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:42,400
universe in terms of a hierarchy of

593
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:45,120
light and then when you can add in david

594
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:47,840
bowm and uh you know for the description

595
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:50,640
of where we are now frozen light and

596
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,600
that

597
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,159
really were progressing towards in a

598
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:56,640
hierarchy of light and that's in a whole

599
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,200
different range of context

600
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:01,919
so the um but the the key thing is that

601
00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:04,159
it it has an impact on us so that's the

602
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:05,600
effects bit

603
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:07,200
of affect

604
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:10,000
so uh in in that example

605
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:11,520
the rose garden

606
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,600
i remember that having an impact on me

607
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,520
but i couldn't get a grip on it was too

608
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:17,360
small i didn't know what what immense

609
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:19,440
didn't know what context it meant but it

610
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:22,799
made me it's a hint or a clue to follow

611
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:24,320
you know this is something there's

612
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:27,840
something there and there was another uh

613
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:30,240
another few examples of that

614
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,159
i remember seeing a picture when i was

615
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:34,240
in the university someone put a picture

616
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:37,200
on the wall and it was of mac the

617
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:38,799
turkish cafe

618
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:40,799
and i noticed it began to affect me when

619
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:42,640
i was just talking to people and they

620
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:44,400
were talking about some administrative

621
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:46,080
things and i was beginning to notice

622
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,720
that this painting was kind of impacting

623
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:50,159
on me that that's the impact of a

624
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:52,480
painting so yeah you're not aware of

625
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,720
speaking to some element of you

626
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:56,880
and and yeah like the rose garden for

627
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:58,720
instance the effect that it could have

628
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:01,679
on you is you know maybe you go into i

629
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:03,039
don't know a restaurant you wouldn't

630
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:04,720
have otherwise because there's a rose

631
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:07,679
garden there or yeah you know or you buy

632
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,400
a book maybe you wouldn't have because

633
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,799
rose is in the title or whatever and

634
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,720
yeah it kind of kind of you know that

635
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:16,559
may be a simple way of describing it but

636
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:18,400
it can definitely affect your your

637
00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:20,240
decision making that way i would say

638
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:22,080
yeah it could make cl may clarify your

639
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,640
choices it may nudge you to say okay

640
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:26,640
well and as it turns out of course

641
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:28,880
there's a lot of literature about

642
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:30,880
rose garden and the significance and

643
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:32,960
it's not clear always what the what what

644
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,960
the implications are it's important for

645
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,039
for it for yates and that but it may

646
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,360
nudge you in a particular way but the

647
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:41,520
key thing and that was was the the

648
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:44,320
perception of the subjective perception

649
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:47,200
of the quality of the dream

650
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:48,480
and and again

651
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,799
i often emphasize the hypno-pompic state

652
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:53,279
when we wake up because i think you've

653
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:55,279
come back from you've been on the sea of

654
00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:57,520
unconscious subconscious whatever and

655
00:25:00,789 --> 00:24:59,039
you're coming back to the beach and this

656
00:25:01,669 --> 00:25:00,799
is there's a short space of time where

657
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:01,679
you can

658
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,240
your perception is open and you may you

659
00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:06,400
may have some flotsam and yet some that

660
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:08,480
are very significant

661
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,600
wonderful

662
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,320
thank you now along the lines of

663
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:14,559
excuse me terrain

664
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,440
and light beings and interpretation and

665
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,799
subjectivity

666
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:20,400
um

667
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,440
we did

668
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,679
uh ask you to come on uh

669
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:25,600
partially to speak about the our lady of

670
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:30,080
fatima case of of 19 primarily 1917 but

671
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:32,240
this was a case that started kind of in

672
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:36,559
1916 and it had and it had repercussions

673
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,360
uh arguably in through the present day

674
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:42,000
certainly through um one of the three

675
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,559
children's um continuing encounters

676
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:46,640
through the rest of her life um could

677
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:47,520
you

678
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:50,159
give a brief history of of what that

679
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:52,000
case in portugal was

680
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:52,960
and

681
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,200
doesn't quite fit in any particular box

682
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:03,679
okay well the key thing is that

683
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:06,000
and again my attention otherwise brother

684
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:08,320
but catholic i i lost interest in a lot

685
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:10,400
of the stuff but came up

686
00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:12,720
back to it again looking at the issue of

687
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:15,840
light in particular but and again

688
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:18,000
the significance of the case is in

689
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:20,559
relation to the evidence of its

690
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:22,640
continual effects and this is even the

691
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:24,640
same argument if you want to if one

692
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,000
wants to discuss

693
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:28,400
issues about christianity and the origin

694
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:30,880
we have to pay attention to the

695
00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:33,200
continuing significance of a phenomenon

696
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:34,480
whatever it is

697
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:39,440
but the yes 1916 and even 1915 there was

698
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:40,960
it's difficult to identify the

699
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:43,919
precursors but it seems that there was a

700
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:46,240
range of angelic experiences

701
00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:48,320
of in particular lucia

702
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,159
one of the children

703
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:53,039
before then uh and and some other

704
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:55,120
children but there there were light

705
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:56,799
beings that they encountered in this

706
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:59,520
place in portugal and covered the

707
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:02,240
area and at fatima

708
00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:03,840
so again it's one of these classic

709
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:05,679
places that you see in a lot of marion

710
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,400
operations of a kind of wild place

711
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:10,000
mountains

712
00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:11,919
and

713
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:16,400
interesting element of marion operation

714
00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:17,600
as well as the

715
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:19,919
seeing a kind of angel beforehand there

716
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:22,320
was also evidence of the spiritualist

717
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,559
circles had a sense that something was

718
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:26,880
going to happen and in particular in may

719
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:28,399
so there was there was something in the

720
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:29,520
air

721
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:32,000
and there there is also a long litany of

722
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:34,320
experiences

723
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:36,559
in portugal

724
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,120
before and since and there's also the

725
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:41,120
tradition of marian apparitions which

726
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:42,880
you know about but

727
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:45,760
the particular experiences went over a

728
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:48,399
six-month period beginning in may

729
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:50,240
13th

730
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:54,080
in in 1917 and went on to to

731
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:57,520
october 13th and through the process

732
00:28:00,830 --> 00:27:59,919
the there was a snowball effect where

733
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:00,840
the

734
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:17,279
people came to witness a phenomenon that

735
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:20,320
that the girls the two girls and the boy

736
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:22,640
predicted was going to help so they they

737
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:26,559
asked this woman or lady that appeared

738
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:29,520
to demonstrate uh who she was and and to

739
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:30,640
demonstrate

740
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:32,960
uh a miracle

741
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:35,679
to so other people would believe and now

742
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:37,840
there's a lot of discussion about

743
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:40,399
who this being was she said she wouldn't

744
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,480
say until the end and she

745
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:44,640
then describes herself as our lady or a

746
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:46,720
lady of the rosary and everyone assumed

747
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,840
that it was

748
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:50,159
the people who write about and i studied

749
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,799
ufos say well there's a debate about

750
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:55,200
that and maybe it wasn't so there's you

751
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,720
know there's just two strong

752
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:58,880
interpretations

753
00:29:04,310 --> 00:28:59,760
there

754
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:04,320
different qualities about the experience

755
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:05,760
the number of there was a bit of

756
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:08,320
different information revealed

757
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,080
she revealed that

758
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:12,480
the two children according to lucia that

759
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:14,960
the two children um other children were

760
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:17,760
going to go to heaven quite soon and two

761
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,520
of the children jacinta and francisco

762
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:23,919
died within a couple of years this was

763
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:26,080
the time of the spanish flu and there

764
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:29,360
was a lot of lung problems etc

765
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:31,679
and lucia lived

766
00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:33,760
and lived for a long time after as she

767
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:35,600
said the lady told her she was going to

768
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:36,399
do

769
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:39,679
and in the middle of the the apparitions

770
00:29:43,669 --> 00:29:42,080
she revealed what was described as

771
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,679
secrets the secrets in the sense that

772
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:45,360
they weren't meant to disclose them at

773
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:46,480
the time

774
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:49,440
uh and these secrets have become uh

775
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:50,480
critical

776
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,760
um and it build up to in a series of

777
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,919
recurrent uh

778
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:57,760
success successive uh

779
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:00,799
operations to october 13th

780
00:30:05,029 --> 00:30:03,039
they occurred on the 13th of each month

781
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:05,039
as the as the

782
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:09,120
lady had or our lady had uh said that

783
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:10,880
they would so this is another important

784
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:13,360
point about the specificity of the

785
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:15,600
appearance and the fact that there was

786
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:18,480
an appointment to be like and that that

787
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:20,720
corresponded with what happened and in

788
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:23,679
particular the anticipation because

789
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:26,559
although other people couldn't engage or

790
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:29,760
or perceive the phenomenon of the

791
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:33,679
experience of the late being or a lady

792
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:36,080
they could experience some extraneous

793
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:38,080
factors and certainly did on october the

794
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:39,840
13th and they could they did have

795
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:43,120
visions themselves or experiences

796
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:43,840
so

797
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:46,480
there were other elements on the way for

798
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:49,039
example at certain stages there were

799
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:51,279
there were other people could uh hear

800
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:54,080
sounds hear humming hear buzzing sounds

801
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,120
here sounds like a rocket sounds like a

802
00:31:02,389 --> 00:30:59,600
a vessel which of course opens up the

803
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:02,399
possibilities that it was a ufo for a

804
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:06,159
lot of people the smell of roses things

805
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:09,039
falling from the air and again as you

806
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,799
know better than i relate to ufo

807
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:12,799
literature there's a lot of this

808
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:16,720
experience there in the ufo literature

809
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:19,840
so uh by the time we come to september

810
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:22,640
13th was spectacular enough as well

811
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:25,360
um and some people could see through the

812
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:29,279
sky to space beyond and there was a

813
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:31,200
dimming of the of the sun

814
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,679
um there were throughout the processes

815
00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:35,440
there was a kind of dimming of the light

816
00:31:41,269 --> 00:31:38,159
and a cold a sense of coldness at

817
00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:41,279
various stages um experienced in

818
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:42,880
different ways by different people by

819
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:46,559
october 13th we had the media skeptics a

820
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:48,640
whole range of people

821
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,399
come to witness the miracle that was

822
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,720
predicted it was a rainy day people

823
00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:55,200
appeared up there was photographers

824
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:57,600
journalists a range of skeptics

825
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,600
scientists clergy and ordinary people

826
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:04,000
and they did witness over an eight

827
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:07,440
million uh minute period after the the

828
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,120
children had gone through their usual

829
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:11,519
process of saying the rosary and

830
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:15,440
communicating with the uh with our lady

831
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:17,600
uh that they

832
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,679
they did have this uh they did have this

833
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:21,120
experience of the miracle of the sun

834
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:22,720
where appeared to

835
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,960
go through a zigzag

836
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:26,720
movement through the sky and

837
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,880
fall towards the earth and

838
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,559
then retreat

839
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:33,200
and associate with that was a kind of

840
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:36,320
full spectrum of colors colored light

841
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:37,360
that

842
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:40,080
changed the the the light around the

843
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:42,799
place and associate with that as well

844
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:45,200
was a drying a sense of

845
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,919
people's clothes being dry and the

846
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:49,519
although it had rained in the morning a

847
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:50,399
lot

848
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:55,669
there was a greater sense of dryness

849
00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:57,919
after the event and that was seen to be

850
00:33:01,190 --> 00:33:00,000
remarkable

851
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:01,200
and

852
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:03,600
this this phenomenon was seen

853
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:05,200
in other places as well it was with

854
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:09,360
witness in other places and from that

855
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:12,240
as i said the two children died

856
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:14,240
in two years and lucia survives and she

857
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:16,640
goes into a convent and over a period of

858
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:17,760
time

859
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:21,440
priest and so there's a whole range of

860
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:24,720
records and but but in the context of

861
00:33:28,549 --> 00:33:25,679
what were

862
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:28,559
secrets they were revealed over a period

863
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:32,559
of time so the first two were revealed

864
00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:35,200
uh later later on and then the third

865
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:38,159
secret wasn't revealed supposedly until

866
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,559
2000 as we well know

867
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,799
a lot of people don't believe that the

868
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:45,519
entirety of that third secret was was

869
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,080
revealed so um

870
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,159
and it's still it's still an issue it's

871
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:52,480
still an issue in particular in relation

872
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,440
to

873
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:55,840
the belief or the the concentration of

874
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:57,039
the message

875
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,399
on russia

876
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:00,399
and the lucia

877
00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:02,640
identifying the second secret as about

878
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:03,519
war

879
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:04,559
there is a

880
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:07,200
again it's difficult chronologically to

881
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:08,800
to say when this occurred because it

882
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,200
seemed to come afterwards but she

883
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:13,520
she did say that there was going to be a

884
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,240
a second or another war to come on which

885
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,240
seemed to be this the second world war

886
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:20,399
although the evidence of that only comes

887
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,119
after the the event

888
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:25,440
put too much attention but and in that

889
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,679
there was the idea that it would be the

890
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,440
second world war would be preceded by

891
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:31,119
lights in the sky and that's related to

892
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:34,720
september 1938 and hitler at the

893
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:37,919
um eagle's nest witnessing the aurora

894
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:40,879
borealis or some phenomenon that was

895
00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:43,359
likely for aurora borealis uh which

896
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:46,960
which makes which albert spears said uh

897
00:34:51,750 --> 00:34:49,040
determined the the course of the war or

898
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,760
the fact that he would initiate a war

899
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,280
again that that that's a more

900
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:55,359
controversial thing but the idea was

901
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:58,320
that russia should be consecrated to the

902
00:35:01,589 --> 00:34:59,440
uh the

903
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:01,599
immaculate heart of the virgin mary and

904
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:03,839
that's why recently it's become

905
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:06,000
important again and in particular in

906
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:07,599
relation to some theories that it's

907
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,400
associated with an anticipation of

908
00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:12,480
current day events

909
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:14,800
very interesting in

910
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:17,599
you know it's it i can't help but think

911
00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:19,760
you know sometimes um especially with

912
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,680
the situation like that where

913
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:23,920
um the vatican gets involved right away

914
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,320
and seems to you know make the message

915
00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:28,400
of fatima what those kids saw and heard

916
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,680
so important

917
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:31,359
do you ever

918
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:37,109
the catholic church using um what could

919
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:39,200
have been something else as a

920
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,400
as a sign or a way to to push their own

921
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:44,000
beliefs and bring people closer to the

922
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:45,839
church when maybe that wasn't

923
00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:48,640
you know the the original message

924
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:51,680
uh that's that's his standard view uh

925
00:36:01,109 --> 00:35:52,960
the only

926
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,069
but the reality is that the church

927
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,480
itself seems to be among the most

928
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:08,160
skeptical a lot of people don't believe

929
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,880
that but if you look at the range of of

930
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:12,960
operations reported to her and if you

931
00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:14,880
look at their actions and the hostility

932
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:17,520
often comes from the the priests and

933
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:19,280
there's another dimension to it and this

934
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:21,359
is this is a very important dimension

935
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,240
for me

936
00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:24,000
is that

937
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:27,520
there is a consistent critique of the

938
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:30,640
church institutions in a number of these

939
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:33,839
apparitions so that there seems to be a

940
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:36,480
consistent trend of

941
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:39,359
not only criticizing priests and blaming

942
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:42,640
priests but an anti-clericalism which is

943
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:45,200
quite remarkable but even if we are to

944
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:47,599
believe some of the hypothesis is about

945
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:50,560
fatima an argument that the church will

946
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:54,400
be taken over by satan so so

947
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:55,839
the argument

948
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,640
if

949
00:37:01,109 --> 00:36:58,800
there's any reality to that

950
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:01,119
the promotion of those uh points is not

951
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:02,720
consistent with its own interest but

952
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:03,839
certainly

953
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:06,480
we have to bear in mind that uh portugal

954
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,200
was very volatile in the early part of

955
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:10,960
the 20th century there's a lot of

956
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:13,200
tension so we have to accept

957
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:15,280
that the uh there's a number of people

958
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:16,800
there could be certain interests

959
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:18,400
although it's difficult to in relation

960
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:20,000
to the jesuits because people assume

961
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,079
that the jesuits want to promote this

962
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:24,079
message but there was a strong current

963
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:27,359
in jesuitism that didn't want to

964
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:28,960
associate with the supernatural and

965
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,119
wanted to focus on the mundane so so

966
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:33,359
that's equally difficult

967
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:36,240
there's as much prejudice in my view in

968
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:37,599
relation to

969
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:39,920
people who wanted to be a ufo now i'm

970
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:42,000
not saying i can't say

971
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:44,000
none of us can say what it was but

972
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:46,720
sometimes when you read some of the

973
00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:48,320
some of the literature

974
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:50,320
there's a there's a an unwillingness to

975
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:52,640
consider that it is what it claims to be

976
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,520
so

977
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:55,520
it works both ways but yeah we have to

978
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:57,839
consider all those uh

979
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,880
yeah

980
00:38:02,069 --> 00:38:00,400
one more before i give it back to you

981
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:02,079
jay uh

982
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:03,440
you're right i mean they were in the

983
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:06,240
middle of a war at that point i believe

984
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:10,160
um and there was a lot of um

985
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:13,440
civil uh civil unrest i mean the reason

986
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:15,200
that a lot of this is really important

987
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:17,520
to me is because that's around the time

988
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:20,160
when my great-grandfather and my grandma

989
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,119
you know came over here to america and

990
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:25,599
you know my my great grandpa was a

991
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,480
monastery and he escaped the monastery

992
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:30,160
you know he didn't want to he didn't

993
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,599
want to be a priest and they owned a lot

994
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:35,440
of land and at that time the people who

995
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:36,240
were

996
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:38,320
you know had stuff where

997
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:40,000
people were coming after him to kind of

998
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:41,359
flip over

999
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:44,800
that power struggle there well so

1000
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,960
they also came after the clergy frame i

1001
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:47,920
mean there

1002
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:50,480
there was significant uh more than

1003
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:52,880
hostility towards the clergy in portugal

1004
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,160
i mean there was a it was a really

1005
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:56,240
serious civil

1006
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:58,640
civil division uh that was very very

1007
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,640
deep and very very hostile and kind of

1008
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:02,880
pre-figures in some way

1009
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:04,000
things that happened later in the

1010
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:06,400
spanish civil war and

1011
00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:08,560
so these issues are heavily politicized

1012
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:10,960
and the connection between the church

1013
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:13,440
and land only system and all that become

1014
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:16,320
comes into the equation so

1015
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:18,079
certainly that that could lead to a

1016
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:19,680
situation where we say well we can't

1017
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,240
trust anything but again

1018
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:24,560
but also we also have to ask then well

1019
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:27,119
why was the particular individuals like

1020
00:39:32,470 --> 00:39:29,920
lucia in this context so persistent or

1021
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,480
why was that you know so it is difficult

1022
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:34,480
to interpret but it was a very volatile

1023
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:40,870
excellent thank you so much yeah and i i

1024
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:44,000
think for for myself um

1025
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,920
i think that it's kind of a both and

1026
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,240
situation or at least with

1027
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,720
you know over 100 years out for me from

1028
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:52,800
what i'm looking at when i look at

1029
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:54,400
different different

1030
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:56,720
different modalities within experiencers

1031
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:58,480
you know it's only within the last kind

1032
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:00,320
of 20 years that

1033
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:03,599
um that has been more popularly accepted

1034
00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:06,880
or even talked about to kind of unsilo

1035
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:09,280
the different paranormal

1036
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:12,480
experiencers you know for years it would

1037
00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:14,319
be like you know you either had a

1038
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,640
near-death experience or you had a ufo

1039
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:18,240
experience or you had a religious

1040
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:21,680
experience etc etc etc and one of the

1041
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:24,079
most interesting things i i think and

1042
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:26,240
one of the things that makes

1043
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:28,640
why so many people study this case is

1044
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,040
that there are so many hallmarks that

1045
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:33,599
have such universality

1046
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:34,720
despite

1047
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:37,119
what the extraordinary experience is

1048
00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:40,720
interpreted as or what it or what it was

1049
00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:41,760
and so

1050
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:44,560
um and you know you could have i mean

1051
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:48,160
many people um including you know myself

1052
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:51,040
sean others you know you can have a

1053
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:53,920
paranormal or ufological experience that

1054
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:56,240
feels deeply resonant in the spiritual

1055
00:41:00,309 --> 00:40:58,160
way to you right you know that does

1056
00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:00,319
happen that something extraordinary

1057
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,640
happens and of course it it shakes you

1058
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,400
or it rocks you in a certain direction

1059
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:06,720
you know um so

1060
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,520
it's it's interesting to look at

1061
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:12,000
this situation where you know according

1062
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:14,319
to various reports in july there are

1063
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,160
over by july 1917 there are maybe 4 000

1064
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:21,920
viewers in august 18 000 september maybe

1065
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:23,760
as much as 30 000

1066
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:26,880
and in october you know between 30 000

1067
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,119
and maybe 100 000 depending on who

1068
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:30,800
you're talking to right

1069
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:31,599
um

1070
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,680
and just briefly uh i i just have to

1071
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:37,839
touch upon some of this phenomena

1072
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,319
specifically and kind of like

1073
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:42,480
let's think about like the universality

1074
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,440
or the overlaps between the different

1075
00:41:50,069 --> 00:41:47,440
the different paranormal disciplines

1076
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,079
along with religious experience maybe

1077
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:52,560
you know uh here this is from jeffrey

1078
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,319
cripel's wonderful authors of the

1079
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,119
impossible he's talking about the the

1080
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,839
marian apparition from fatima she did

1081
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,599
not look like the images of the blessed

1082
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:03,280
virgin known in the devotional

1083
00:42:07,190 --> 00:42:05,599
iconography of the local churches she

1084
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,200
was enveloped in a kind of light that

1085
00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:09,520
was more beautiful than the sun and very

1086
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:11,680
bright her dress which appears to have

1087
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,920
hugged her body somewhat covered her

1088
00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:16,240
from the neck to the feet and emitted a

1089
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:18,000
similar white light

1090
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:20,240
she was about one meter tall so that's

1091
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:23,200
about three three feet or so right uh

1092
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,800
some descriptions have her wearing a

1093
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,200
robe or cape extending to her knees

1094
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:29,200
something on her head it's not clear at

1095
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:31,280
all what and a chain with a golden ball

1096
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:32,880
attached to it at about the level of her

1097
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:34,880
waist she had black eyes and looked

1098
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:37,440
serious her mouth did not move when she

1099
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:40,000
spoke she did not use her feet when she

1100
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:42,960
moved rather she glided or floated

1101
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:44,240
and then there was the weird but

1102
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:45,920
beautiful buzzing

1103
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:48,240
so like there's there's like all these

1104
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:50,480
situations where it's like the people

1105
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:51,520
that

1106
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:53,280
there are also accounts where like the

1107
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:55,760
smallest of the

1108
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:57,839
children may not have always seen

1109
00:43:01,270 --> 00:42:59,920
exactly that depiction

1110
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:01,280
and the people that were visiting didn't

1111
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:03,280
even necessarily see that depiction or

1112
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:05,200
even see the being at all they just saw

1113
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:07,760
the kids under this tree maybe with a

1114
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:10,160
cloud or a light around it

1115
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:12,000
and as you spoke about before that's a

1116
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:13,760
really interesting facet of this

1117
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:15,839
situation where you could have 30 000

1118
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:17,760
people around and they would all maybe

1119
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:20,000
see something that's slightly different

1120
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:23,359
you know um yeah would mm-hmm

1121
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,829
that actually goes back to the point

1122
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:32,000
that i was i was referring to about

1123
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:34,160
receptivity that we have different

1124
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:35,920
levels of receptivity and related

1125
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:37,520
subjective receptivity towards

1126
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:40,640
phenomenon as well uh and so so that is

1127
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,480
a particular aspect and then there's

1128
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:45,599
also disposition in relation to

1129
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:48,079
francisco you certainly didn't see

1130
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:50,720
other things uh going on but well i mean

1131
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:52,720
there are differences between

1132
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:54,640
stages of development and

1133
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:57,040
lucia was precocious she was described

1134
00:44:02,069 --> 00:43:59,760
as unusual in relation to

1135
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,079
her personality and her ability to

1136
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:04,800
perceive things from early on so he was

1137
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:06,400
different he was interested in animals

1138
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:07,599
and different

1139
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:09,920
so there are there are issues about uh

1140
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:14,240
receptivity uh the the image

1141
00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:16,000
here's another issue in relation to

1142
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:17,119
evidence

1143
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,480
um

1144
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:20,160
the first one i became interested and

1145
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:21,920
began to study was the aberration and

1146
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:22,800
knock

1147
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:25,839
and i i began to study it

1148
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:28,000
because it looked or become skeptical

1149
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:29,920
because it looked like

1150
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:31,839
the images that were known that's what

1151
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:34,560
made me skeptical about it so

1152
00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:36,880
this is this is it works the other way

1153
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,720
around oh she's not like the virgin mary

1154
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,240
she's like the representation of the

1155
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:41,680
very you know so

1156
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:44,160
it doesn't help us at all because

1157
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:46,720
if it looks like an existing image

1158
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,599
created by an artist well then there's

1159
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,000
possibly more evidence that it was for

1160
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:54,720
example when i looked at or or beyond to

1161
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:56,960
reset and this was years ago i i i was

1162
00:45:02,230 --> 00:44:59,839
going to research

1163
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,240
more because i had a theory about magic

1164
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,040
lanterns and i was trying to identify

1165
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:06,960
the movement of magic lanterns in

1166
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:08,880
ireland and whether because i had that

1167
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,079
static projected quality

1168
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:13,680
about and there was other reasons

1169
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:15,119
associated with

1170
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,560
so then when we have a figure which is

1171
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:18,960
different uh the argument that it's not

1172
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:20,960
like the verge you know it doesn't

1173
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:23,760
necessarily help us in relation to that

1174
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:26,480
and then we also have to bear in mind

1175
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,720
that we have descriptions of an unseen

1176
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:30,560
phenomenon that's recorded by other

1177
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:34,079
people that you know so also as we know

1178
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:36,960
uh eyewitness

1179
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:38,480
descriptions of people and especially

1180
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,119
from children it can be difficult so i

1181
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:42,720
don't dispute that that's what the

1182
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:45,040
figure or how the figure was but what

1183
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:47,359
that means i don't know i don't think we

1184
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:49,760
can draw conclusions from that sometimes

1185
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:51,359
that depends on your starting point and

1186
00:45:56,950 --> 00:45:54,160
what a priority people have decided but

1187
00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:56,960
one thing i want to to to put into the

1188
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:58,000
discussion

1189
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:59,440
is that

1190
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:00,640
there is a

1191
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:02,560
strong bias in a lot of the literature

1192
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,119
ufo from the unit about united states by

1193
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,680
us and the bias is this that they assume

1194
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,520
that the phenomenon is a kind of modern

1195
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:11,280
phenomenon and that

1196
00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:13,359
that's what i see in the literature and

1197
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:15,119
all the discussion is a new discussion

1198
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:16,880
of course jack valet

1199
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:19,200
contextualizes and goes back and puts it

1200
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:20,720
into that tradition which i think is

1201
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,119
correct but somewhat some of the

1202
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:24,960
some of the discussion or in the sci-fi

1203
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:29,040
context sees it as a some way related to

1204
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:29,760
the

1205
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:34,720
development or even in jung's idea about

1206
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:36,880
manifestation of an industrial context

1207
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:39,839
but as jack valet and others indicate

1208
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,710
that the as you said the phenomenon

1209
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:43,920
[Music]

1210
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:46,240
are seen in a unitary context or should

1211
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:48,720
be or can be uh and phenomenologically

1212
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:49,680
if we

1213
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,680
start from the person well then we begin

1214
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:53,760
to see the similarities which i agree

1215
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:56,400
with and the one example i would give to

1216
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:57,920
corroborate that

1217
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,240
uh or the suggestion i suppose in in

1218
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:02,400
your points is if we look at saint

1219
00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:04,000
columba which i've talked about in

1220
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,160
relation to the sixth century and

1221
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,160
there's descriptions and these are quite

1222
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:10,800
decent records

1223
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,160
they were recorded a while after words

1224
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:16,000
from monks in the monastery but there's

1225
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:18,800
one example where he tells

1226
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:21,200
saint columba tells them the monks not

1227
00:47:26,790 --> 00:47:23,280
to follow him he goes out and one of the

1228
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:26,800
monks follows him uh and he's he's in he

1229
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:29,440
when he's hiding he sees

1230
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:31,680
the man the saint columba

1231
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,000
communicating with these light beings

1232
00:47:38,309 --> 00:47:36,640
that's the way that they're described so

1233
00:47:39,589 --> 00:47:38,319
you can of course say that's angels but

1234
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:39,599
you can also say that it was something

1235
00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:41,760
else now the question is

1236
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:44,559
uh does it matter in some context no

1237
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:47,520
because you still don't know what it is

1238
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:48,640
that's right

1239
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:49,839
but again

1240
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:52,800
if there is evidence of effects of it

1241
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:55,440
for example that's one factor and if

1242
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:57,920
if columba comes back and starts

1243
00:48:02,549 --> 00:47:59,839
attacking his fellow brothers with a

1244
00:48:04,710 --> 00:48:02,559
machete for example it may not be good

1245
00:48:07,270 --> 00:48:04,720
there is you know like charles upton's

1246
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,280
idea about the demonic kind of domain of

1247
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:09,440
ufos

1248
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:12,240
again we can't really interpret them in

1249
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:15,200
certain context but we can interpret the

1250
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:17,680
impact on people and what it has done

1251
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:20,160
and if it's a positive thing that

1252
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:22,800
increases the person's ability to to to

1253
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:25,839
deal with the world well uh in some way

1254
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:27,680
that may be relevant although as we know

1255
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:29,280
it's a double-edged sword because the

1256
00:48:33,670 --> 00:48:31,040
novelty of the experience and the social

1257
00:48:35,109 --> 00:48:33,680
ostracism associated with on

1258
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:35,119
unexplained phenomenon may have a

1259
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:36,960
negative effect but that's that's

1260
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:38,720
recorded in the near-death experience

1261
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:40,640
where there might be a deep positive

1262
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,640
effect there may be a negative social

1263
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:44,400
effect so there's a balancing and that

1264
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:45,760
as well

1265
00:48:49,510 --> 00:48:47,680
yeah that that's a actually a really

1266
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:49,520
great point um

1267
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:53,829
you know thinking about

1268
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:55,839
kind of asking you this question before

1269
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,920
you you kind of started getting on on it

1270
00:49:02,069 --> 00:48:59,680
a little bit and

1271
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:02,079
you know i think your explanation of uh

1272
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:04,559
maybe we can't say what this is or what

1273
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:06,960
that is but we can really engage a lot

1274
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:08,480
by the effect it has on the person i

1275
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:10,319
mean i think that's logical

1276
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:13,520
um you know if if i see something and it

1277
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:16,160
puts me in a rut and i continue you know

1278
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:18,400
i'm anti-social i don't talk to anybody

1279
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:21,040
i stop doing things maybe that's bad but

1280
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:23,280
yeah there is a little complex situation

1281
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,319
there where

1282
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:26,400
maybe you know it has a poor effect in

1283
00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:28,079
one way but a positive effect in the

1284
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:30,480
other and it's kind of hard to

1285
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:32,480
to gauge what really it is but i guess

1286
00:49:37,109 --> 00:49:34,559
my question for you would be

1287
00:49:39,349 --> 00:49:37,119
is maybe one that you can't answer maybe

1288
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:39,359
no one can really answer this but do you

1289
00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:41,760
think that as far as

1290
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,920
non-human entities are concerned do you

1291
00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:45,119
think there are

1292
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:48,079
uh multiple kinds with different intents

1293
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:49,920
or do you tend to think that this all

1294
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:52,800
comes from kind of the same entity that

1295
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:56,000
maybe is just multifaceted

1296
00:50:00,710 --> 00:49:58,720
i i think personally there's a range or

1297
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:00,720
there's a range of beings i think some

1298
00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:03,119
of them are beings which live on the

1299
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:05,640
earth that we perceive them sometimes as

1300
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:07,520
extraterrestrials but they're

1301
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:10,240
terrestrials but really they're they're

1302
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:12,880
figures that we can't uh perceive in

1303
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:15,040
some way i think if you look at the

1304
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:18,240
literature on fairies uh in particular

1305
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,119
um

1306
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:21,359
the and gone back to

1307
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:22,720
reverend kirk and the secret the

1308
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:25,040
original secret commonwealth and his

1309
00:50:28,309 --> 00:50:27,359
description was consistent with what

1310
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:28,319
uh the

1311
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:30,079
the experience of people i would have

1312
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,440
known or

1313
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:33,839
made some of my own kind of perceptions

1314
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,000
of that there's a range of these figures

1315
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:38,559
that have lived in the environment from

1316
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,079
the the noble tall uh figures to the the

1317
00:50:46,950 --> 00:50:45,040
grave figures again can be the the

1318
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:46,960
fairies the the the figures that we

1319
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:50,880
perceive as uh as coming from craft uh

1320
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:53,200
maybe the the the fairies that live in

1321
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,280
the mountains and there are certain

1322
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,359
times that you see them for example at

1323
00:51:02,230 --> 00:50:59,599
twilight and i think that's related to

1324
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:02,240
our ability to receive visual or

1325
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:04,079
perceptive information it's not

1326
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:05,520
necessarily the time they're out it's

1327
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:06,720
about

1328
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:10,000
steiner said there's a change in energy

1329
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,079
so you could say that uh and it is an

1330
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,000
in-between time but it's also a time

1331
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:16,480
where we adjust to our environment and

1332
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:18,720
and it's not unknown to see those

1333
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:21,520
figures uh i think those

1334
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:24,000
those figures described as the kind of

1335
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:27,920
smoke like figures in the gin the in the

1336
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:30,480
arabic world are kind of consistent as

1337
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:33,440
well but and that's so recorded and so

1338
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:35,920
recurrent um that they can't be

1339
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:37,839
dismissed and even when we go back in

1340
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:39,599
irish legend some of the kind of

1341
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:41,839
foundation stories were about ships

1342
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,160
coming in you know and and landing and

1343
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:46,079
bringing people uh

1344
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:47,119
so so

1345
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:49,599
those are there a lot of people don't

1346
00:51:53,670 --> 00:51:51,440
take them seriously but i don't think

1347
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:53,680
they can be dismissed if you go back to

1348
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:56,640
the funny quality of early irish legend

1349
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:57,920
is it seems

1350
00:52:03,349 --> 00:52:01,359
in another sense the magic seems very

1351
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:03,359
consistent with high technology if you

1352
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,400
approach another perspective so i i

1353
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:08,240
think there are a range of beings i

1354
00:52:13,270 --> 00:52:10,400
think there are a range of beings that i

1355
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:13,280
believe we can be possessed by uh by

1356
00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:14,240
beings

1357
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:16,880
and i think that some of these figures

1358
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:18,800
can move into our space that's that's

1359
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:19,839
what my

1360
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:21,520
personal belief is so i think there's

1361
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:22,480
again

1362
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:24,480
we can learn from the religious

1363
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:26,880
traditions here it's city to dismiss

1364
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:29,520
some of the experience that is there so

1365
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,359
that's why i think it needs to be a

1366
00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:33,920
dialogue that that we can't be too

1367
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,160
dogmatic about right how we listen to

1368
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:38,160
people and so again a cosmopolitan

1369
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:39,680
perspective

1370
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:42,480
i i listen to anybody on that and people

1371
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:44,000
have things to say and

1372
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:46,319
the quality of the the quality of the

1373
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:52,230
ism is important and even say on that

1374
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,400
issue about experience for example the

1375
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:56,160
person experience to me

1376
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,079
related by someone that i find credible

1377
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,240
in the relation of the experience is

1378
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:02,000
more significant than a picture that

1379
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:03,359
they show me because you know there's

1380
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:05,920
people showing pictures and i i i can't

1381
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,000
yeah look at this

1382
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:10,160
i can't tell it could be right you know

1383
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:12,400
it's just i'm in a lesser position so

1384
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:14,880
that's why i so so it was very common in

1385
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,720
ireland for people to have a whole range

1386
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,480
of experiences nothing unusual it was

1387
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:20,559
accepted it's only in the last

1388
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:23,040
generation or two in particular since

1389
00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:24,319
there has been

1390
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:27,040
an assault on the consciousness to try

1391
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:28,880
or to project

1392
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:30,720
a kind of doctrine of scientism or an

1393
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:33,040
ideology of scientism that people have

1394
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:34,720
become skeptical about these things and

1395
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,160
just one interesting

1396
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:38,240
one interesting cultural point

1397
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:39,680
when i was growing up if you said the

1398
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:41,040
virgin

1399
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:44,480
mary and then there was a

1400
00:53:48,150 --> 00:53:46,640
bit change in the 60s a virgin meant

1401
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:48,160
someone that didn't you know a virgin

1402
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:50,240
hadn't had sex it began to the usage of

1403
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:52,400
the word and public context change

1404
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:54,559
and then we had in the 80s

1405
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:57,119
like a virgin madonna

1406
00:54:02,549 --> 00:54:00,160
if you think about mtv all of a sudden

1407
00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:02,559
this is what so so this this is an

1408
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:04,319
interesting phenomenon then we had the

1409
00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:07,119
brand virgin virgin airways virgin this

1410
00:54:12,150 --> 00:54:10,079
virginia so what's very interesting is

1411
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,160
we start off with a i'll put on the

1412
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:14,160
right on my right hand side we started

1413
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,559
off with a concept so the brand's name

1414
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:18,960
if you like of the virgin mary the

1415
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:21,359
virgin if you said virgin or tottenberg

1416
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:23,040
our lady

1417
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:24,960
mother of jesus so that's there that's

1418
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:26,960
what's in the public consciousness then

1419
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:29,680
we have sneaking up here madonna like a

1420
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:32,720
virgin virgin airways virgin floyer this

1421
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,760
brand and then we have a process whereby

1422
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,359
they begin to shift together so

1423
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:39,599
associations we said to young people

1424
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:41,040
they're going to associate with a brand

1425
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:43,040
i said and then the other one's gone

1426
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:44,799
i mean if there is a

1427
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:46,160
interesting

1428
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:48,000
cultural discourse there that i think

1429
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:49,920
people don't it's the same as

1430
00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:52,319
the spiritual enlightenment becomes that

1431
00:54:56,789 --> 00:54:55,040
enlightenment so you have enlightenment

1432
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:56,799
buddha whatever way you want to look at

1433
00:55:01,030 --> 00:54:59,119
it the tradition of light etc and then

1434
00:55:03,670 --> 00:55:01,040
we have scientific enlightenment and

1435
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:03,680
then and then you get left you get that

1436
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:06,400
warm it's a process of substitution so

1437
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,240
what you're saying is you know the

1438
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:09,680
whoever's in charge of this whole

1439
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:12,799
shindig is trying to make technology the

1440
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:15,760
new virgin mary

1441
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:17,040
you know

1442
00:55:26,069 --> 00:55:23,589
you have an attempt to

1443
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,079
simulate create a simulacrum of

1444
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:28,799
spiritual experience that's a consistent

1445
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:29,520
thing

1446
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:31,280
and you might say well that's just the

1447
00:55:34,150 --> 00:55:32,960
left brain right brain it might be so

1448
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:34,160
the left brain doesn't understand the

1449
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:36,160
right brain in mcgill chris all that

1450
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,760
kind of stuff so they can't understand

1451
00:55:41,349 --> 00:55:39,280
they know you understand it mathematical

1452
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:41,359
terms concrete terms isolated terms

1453
00:55:46,069 --> 00:55:44,160
fixed terms not flowing contextual terms

1454
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,079
you you could use that it's a good sound

1455
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:48,319
basis but they're more sinister argument

1456
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:49,680
the argument is

1457
00:55:54,069 --> 00:55:51,680
if you listen to you val noah harari he

1458
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:54,079
says clearly that you're

1459
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:56,400
hackable me too we're all hackable

1460
00:56:01,349 --> 00:55:59,119
animals i mean it's a devastating it's a

1461
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:01,359
devastating policy statement from one of

1462
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:03,119
the most powerful organizations in the

1463
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:05,520
world the world economic forum so you're

1464
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:07,760
a hackable animal there's no such thing

1465
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,760
as god that's ridiculous the only cloud

1466
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,520
is the you know the information

1467
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,359
technology cloud

1468
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:15,280
i was always suspicious about them using

1469
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:16,960
these natural

1470
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:18,640
substitutes

1471
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:20,640
and there's no such thing as spirit it's

1472
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:24,160
a delusion and we will become gods and

1473
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:26,319
the gods will be the most destructive

1474
00:56:29,829 --> 00:56:28,000
and creative i mean that that's what

1475
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:29,839
it's quite clear to become unclear about

1476
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:33,280
the agenda now that's that's the effort

1477
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,400
to focus on an ultra-materialism to deny

1478
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:38,079
anything spiritual but

1479
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:40,400
and a very interesting element to it is

1480
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:42,720
that some of the people involved in that

1481
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,400
process do actually believe in spirit

1482
00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:46,640
but it's not the type of spirit that is

1483
00:56:50,309 --> 00:56:47,839
consistent

1484
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:50,319
has been here for the last or dominant

1485
00:56:56,069 --> 00:56:54,559
for the last 2 000 years in in and

1486
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:56,079
has risen so

1487
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:57,520
there's a very very interesting element

1488
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,520
but i do i do believe it's a deliberate

1489
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:00,960
policy yeah

1490
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:01,760
um

1491
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:06,640
you guys uh depending on how much time

1492
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:08,000
do you have do you guys have enough time

1493
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,160
to maybe take a break and go for another

1494
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:12,799
30 minutes 45 yeah no problem yeah sure

1495
00:57:17,349 --> 00:57:15,200
i could do another 30. yeah cool yeah

1496
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,359
all right sweet i'm gonna kick you guys

1497
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:19,760
out and we'll just take a short break

1498
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:22,480
everybody and we'll be back

1499
00:57:24,950 --> 00:57:24,079
okay like three cool

1500
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:24,960
yeah

1501
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:28,400
three to five minutes sounds great okay

1502
00:57:38,810 --> 00:57:29,520
cool

1503
00:59:39,990 --> 00:57:58,590
[Music]

1504
00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:43,270
i'm just a witness

1505
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:54,940
i don't know what i saw if it's alien

1506
01:00:12,309 --> 00:59:56,230
[Music]

1507
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:15,270
i'm just a witness

1508
01:00:52,540 --> 01:00:17,650
citizen

1509
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,870
[Music]

1510
01:01:02,150 --> 01:00:57,119
bye

1511
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:05,510
just you know i figured

1512
01:01:10,309 --> 01:01:08,000
it's friday

1513
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:10,319
let's go for broke today james is a

1514
01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:12,559
fantastic guest i really enjoy talking

1515
01:01:16,789 --> 01:01:14,640
to him

1516
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:16,799
jay is

1517
01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:18,640
you know

1518
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:20,480
one of the best guys in the whole

1519
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:21,839
freaking world

1520
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:24,720
you guys are being a fantastic

1521
01:01:30,150 --> 01:01:27,520
uh audience

1522
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:30,160
so i figured we'll go a little longer

1523
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,000
here i got my

1524
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:38,390
it's not an alcoholic it's actually some

1525
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:40,559
vitamin juice and water

1526
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:41,520
so

1527
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:47,829
or do drugs they're bad for your body

1528
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:50,240
so uh with that being said

1529
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:52,880
let me bring the boys back in town and

1530
01:01:57,990 --> 01:01:55,920
we'll continue this conversation here

1531
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:58,000
thanks for hanging out

1532
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:59,200
great

1533
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:00,960
yeah thank you so much james for the

1534
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:03,280
time sorry a pleasure james

1535
01:02:07,109 --> 01:02:05,200
what aspect i didn't get the control

1536
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:07,119
theory what aspect were you thinking

1537
01:02:10,710 --> 01:02:08,640
about or what when you asked the

1538
01:02:12,710 --> 01:02:10,720
original question you said no sir

1539
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:12,720
oh sure yeah and i didn't i didn't mean

1540
01:02:16,950 --> 01:02:15,359
to i i didn't mean to throw out a wild

1541
01:02:20,549 --> 01:02:16,960
card straight out the gate

1542
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,559
um but uh you know dr villa he's got he

1543
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,960
has this long-standing control system i

1544
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:25,200
thought hypothesis is brewing where

1545
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:27,359
he's he says well you know maybe it's

1546
01:02:32,309 --> 01:02:29,839
not this maybe it's not that maybe it's

1547
01:02:33,029 --> 01:02:32,319
like in kind of an unseen hand that kind

1548
01:02:38,309 --> 01:02:33,039
of

1549
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:38,319
driver where we're being held in a

1550
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:40,960
particular state by whatever this is

1551
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:42,480
we're all looking at different parts of

1552
01:02:46,870 --> 01:02:44,880
the elephant basically you know okay

1553
01:02:49,349 --> 01:02:46,880
depending on where we're coming from and

1554
01:02:51,990 --> 01:02:49,359
then that elephant is kind of

1555
01:02:54,390 --> 01:02:52,000
that that paranormal religious spiritual

1556
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:54,400
elephant and its minions are

1557
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:58,559
or however that works is kind of um both

1558
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:01,119
holding us in place in a way and and

1559
01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:02,400
really kind of

1560
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:05,599
um and as kind of designing in a way our

1561
01:03:09,910 --> 01:03:07,920
evolution in a way and so i i think

1562
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:09,920
that's interesting as a concept in terms

1563
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:13,760
of an agnostic framework or or kind of a

1564
01:03:18,069 --> 01:03:16,400
20th or 21st century framework not

1565
01:03:20,309 --> 01:03:18,079
necessarily one that everybody should

1566
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:20,319
believe in and i don't even necessarily

1567
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:21,680
know that i believe in it but it's an

1568
01:03:26,390 --> 01:03:24,160
interesting kind of go-between

1569
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:26,400
between say the straight you follow

1570
01:03:29,270 --> 01:03:27,680
ufological

1571
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:29,280
and the paranormal and maybe the

1572
01:03:35,510 --> 01:03:32,480
spiritual yeah i i i do i i

1573
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:35,520
i do recall that and i'm

1574
01:03:39,829 --> 01:03:37,839
reading about that and the the only

1575
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:39,839
thing i'd say on that is that

1576
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:42,400
uh there is a bit of a tendency to to

1577
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:45,280
cry try and create a meta narrative uh

1578
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:47,520
which which will replace again a

1579
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:49,359
substitute you know

1580
01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:51,680
as well so that that tension is there as

1581
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:54,240
well actually to relate phenomenon that

1582
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,480
are not actually related in that sense

1583
01:04:00,309 --> 01:03:58,319
although clearly there is something

1584
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:00,319
about consciousness and uh

1585
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:03,839
there so yeah okay i understood

1586
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:05,520
yeah and i and i appreciate what you

1587
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:08,000
mean in terms of both having a range of

1588
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:10,640
beings and i think that you're you're

1589
01:04:14,390 --> 01:04:11,440
deep

1590
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:14,400
you know investment in irish and celtic

1591
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:16,240
lore you know you mentioned the secret

1592
01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:18,799
commonwealth yeah you mentioned yates

1593
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:20,400
who of course yeah very

1594
01:04:24,870 --> 01:04:22,720
notable tome on irish folk and fairy

1595
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,880
tales and then of course you know fairy

1596
01:04:28,390 --> 01:04:26,880
faith in celtic countries by evans wentz

1597
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:28,400
is a total chaos

1598
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:30,000
i think they're very important and i

1599
01:04:34,150 --> 01:04:32,160
think yates is underestimated in

1600
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:34,160
relation to his knowledge of what was

1601
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:36,880
going on and the fairly faith is an

1602
01:04:40,549 --> 01:04:39,119
important document and that was

1603
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:40,559
that was something

1604
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,319
that was a when i was small it was a

1605
01:04:47,510 --> 01:04:44,799
lived experience you know so

1606
01:04:49,910 --> 01:04:47,520
nobody was reading books about it

1607
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:49,920
it was there people people recounted

1608
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:52,640
that and again that orality is being

1609
01:04:56,950 --> 01:04:55,599
lost that real social phenomenon and

1610
01:04:59,910 --> 01:04:56,960
it's also

1611
01:05:01,910 --> 01:04:59,920
as that's being packaged into context

1612
01:05:03,589 --> 01:05:01,920
it's dragged into the

1613
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:03,599
machine if you like

1614
01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:07,039
well things are being lost outside

1615
01:05:11,990 --> 01:05:09,680
the existing reality of a social

1616
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:12,000
construct that held those stories as

1617
01:05:14,950 --> 01:05:12,880
well and

1618
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:14,960
that that emerged from people's

1619
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,480
experience that's why

1620
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,240
people's experience is very very

1621
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,160
important in relation to

1622
01:05:23,349 --> 01:05:22,480
cultural reality that's experienced and

1623
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,359
lived

1624
01:05:27,670 --> 01:05:25,680
so that again corroborates the

1625
01:05:30,549 --> 01:05:27,680
significance of some of the work you're

1626
01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:30,559
doing here i deeply appreciate that

1627
01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:31,760
um

1628
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,319
jonathan davies is a great dude always

1629
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:36,720
comes in with great questions and i i

1630
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:38,160
love this question he says what was the

1631
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:40,319
purpose of uh

1632
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:42,880
fatima is it the show that a reality is

1633
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:44,240
fake in the future is rewritten the

1634
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,760
knowledge also does not seem to have

1635
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:48,079
been acted upon to prevent anything for

1636
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:49,039
you

1637
01:05:52,309 --> 01:05:50,400
james i would take it a little bit

1638
01:05:54,549 --> 01:05:52,319
further i would say

1639
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:54,559
you know we get kind of a lot of similar

1640
01:05:59,750 --> 01:05:57,280
uh messages from from different

1641
01:06:02,710 --> 01:05:59,760
you know uh contactees or experiencers

1642
01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:02,720
or or whatever that kind of uh seem very

1643
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:05,520
similar a lot of the times whether it be

1644
01:06:11,190 --> 01:06:08,000
you know um take care of your earth or

1645
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,200
war and and people definitely have

1646
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:13,680
you know sometimes in in

1647
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:15,920
you know flaps or influx myself for

1648
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:18,319
instance kind of end of world type

1649
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:20,640
dreams apocalyptic dreams you know that

1650
01:06:23,829 --> 01:06:22,000
but people have been having those for a

1651
01:06:25,510 --> 01:06:23,839
long time do you think

1652
01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:25,520
you know humans should take those

1653
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:26,720
message

1654
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:29,760
are they

1655
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:34,559
in nature what's your take on that stuff

1656
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:36,079
i think there's both i think that

1657
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:37,839
there's a difference there are certain

1658
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:39,920
ones that are individual that are unique

1659
01:06:43,190 --> 01:06:41,760
and why that happens i don't know but

1660
01:06:45,349 --> 01:06:43,200
it's related to

1661
01:06:47,829 --> 01:06:45,359
the levels of ascent if you like or

1662
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,839
receptivity that where one is opening up

1663
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:49,839
there is certain if you like for the

1664
01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:52,480
artist the muse or the angel or

1665
01:06:56,789 --> 01:06:55,119
the man or woman of light in in the

1666
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:56,799
persian tradition that you're actually

1667
01:07:01,109 --> 01:06:58,720
experiencing your higher self and that

1668
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:01,119
you you open up towards that and that

1669
01:07:06,069 --> 01:07:03,760
that's the being that's persistent and

1670
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:06,079
that knows more and that you have access

1671
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:09,280
to so so so there's that level to it uh

1672
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:10,640
but

1673
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,760
what i find compelling reason uh in

1674
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:15,680
looking at the marian operations for

1675
01:07:20,789 --> 01:07:18,720
example of a lady or or whatever is

1676
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:20,799
there is a consistent message

1677
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:21,839
and

1678
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:23,920
fully enough the message

1679
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:26,160
the undercurrent message that one gets

1680
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:29,039
from that is the one that i have come to

1681
01:07:34,390 --> 01:07:31,920
from other from other bases

1682
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:34,400
so the argument

1683
01:07:37,990 --> 01:07:36,000
in particular it's interesting that

1684
01:07:39,109 --> 01:07:38,000
there seemed to be an operation at la

1685
01:07:41,190 --> 01:07:39,119
salette

1686
01:07:43,029 --> 01:07:41,200
that she seemed to refer

1687
01:07:44,950 --> 01:07:43,039
she refers to

1688
01:07:46,950 --> 01:07:44,960
the antichrist has been you know coming

1689
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:46,960
to rome and you know so this is this is

1690
01:07:51,029 --> 01:07:48,880
another reason the church might not be

1691
01:07:53,910 --> 01:07:51,039
too too happy about it like that it's

1692
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:53,920
going to be to spawn the the antichrist

1693
01:07:59,430 --> 01:07:56,720
and there was a there was a there was a

1694
01:08:00,549 --> 01:07:59,440
discussion about or evidenced from one

1695
01:08:02,230 --> 01:08:00,559
of the

1696
01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:02,240
experiences that

1697
01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:05,440
uh the antichrist was born in 1865 or

1698
01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:08,079
this is one of the the stories that

1699
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:09,760
emerges or whatever way you want to

1700
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:12,400
interpret it and i was reflecting on

1701
01:08:17,430 --> 01:08:15,440
that and 18 the 1860s is critical the

1702
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:17,440
the the we have to we want to understand

1703
01:08:19,990 --> 01:08:19,279
the modern world it goes back there we

1704
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,000
want

1705
01:08:23,189 --> 01:08:22,319
modern art for example is often traced

1706
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,199
there

1707
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,920
huxley the x club in britain where the

1708
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:27,520
scientists are infiltrating the

1709
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:29,920
organization which led to as i said the

1710
01:08:33,749 --> 01:08:31,839
definition of psychic forces and the

1711
01:08:37,110 --> 01:08:33,759
origin of psychical research as a

1712
01:08:39,349 --> 01:08:37,120
counter balance so the 1860s is critical

1713
01:08:41,950 --> 01:08:39,359
and the 1860s is also

1714
01:08:45,189 --> 01:08:41,960
when what became the international

1715
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:45,199
telecommunications union was founded so

1716
01:08:47,990 --> 01:08:46,799
this is about associated with

1717
01:08:50,070 --> 01:08:48,000
international management of the

1718
01:08:52,149 --> 01:08:50,080
telegraph system so this is where when

1719
01:08:54,309 --> 01:08:52,159
they began to mainly driven by the

1720
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:54,319
british and french to establish the

1721
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:55,920
network of communications

1722
01:09:00,309 --> 01:08:58,080
internationally which was very critical

1723
01:09:01,189 --> 01:09:00,319
h.g wells realized the significance of

1724
01:09:02,870 --> 01:09:01,199
this

1725
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:02,880
uh arthur c clarke realized the

1726
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:04,880
significance of this and these are two

1727
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:06,480
classic kind of

1728
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:10,960
transhumanist uh new world order type so

1729
01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:13,520
it may be that the warnings are about

1730
01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:16,080
the emergence of not something spiritual

1731
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:18,239
in that sense but some material

1732
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:20,400
manifestation of a certain type of

1733
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:21,920
spirit and if you like

1734
01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:25,839
the the reality control system begins

1735
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:28,960
then from the 1865 and also it emerged

1736
01:09:32,870 --> 01:09:30,400
from the the postal system now the

1737
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:32,880
postal system is not controversial you

1738
01:09:36,630 --> 01:09:35,279
don't say i'm against globalism

1739
01:09:38,470 --> 01:09:36,640
but i'm not going to post a letter for

1740
01:09:41,590 --> 01:09:38,480
example because i had to be an apparatus

1741
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:41,600
that was set up telegram the cable a lot

1742
01:09:44,709 --> 01:09:42,799
of people don't know that there was a

1743
01:09:46,630 --> 01:09:44,719
cable laid out under the atlantic you

1744
01:09:49,349 --> 01:09:46,640
know to communicate an amazing

1745
01:09:51,030 --> 01:09:49,359
engineering story and then

1746
01:09:53,310 --> 01:09:51,040
the interest of people like artist c

1747
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:53,320
clark satellite communications it's a

1748
01:09:59,350 --> 01:09:57,679
continuation of this system up to 5g

1749
01:10:01,430 --> 01:09:59,360
today

1750
01:10:02,110 --> 01:10:01,440
rule britannia britannia rules the way

1751
01:10:10,070 --> 01:10:02,120
of

1752
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:10,080
they're remote controlled the projects

1753
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,040
from mk ultra the projects from the cia

1754
01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:15,360
to control the airwaves so there's a

1755
01:10:21,350 --> 01:10:18,400
battle for control of the airwaves that

1756
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:21,360
does start in the 1860s so we know and

1757
01:10:25,110 --> 01:10:22,800
and if we take someone like philip k

1758
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:25,120
dick where he's understanding the future

1759
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:27,040
is one of control of perception and

1760
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:29,600
control direct intervention in some way

1761
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,360
that we know is happening now that we

1762
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:33,760
know the world economic forum is saying

1763
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:37,040
is an inevitability uh that we know that

1764
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:40,400
there's methods of inserting or

1765
01:10:44,630 --> 01:10:43,440
inserting transistors in in the body

1766
01:10:46,950 --> 01:10:44,640
that the

1767
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:46,960
they've been experimenting with

1768
01:10:52,790 --> 01:10:49,679
inserting nanotechnology to make those

1769
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:52,800
antennae um and in fact

1770
01:10:59,510 --> 01:10:56,000
uh some of the well so let's go down a

1771
01:11:02,470 --> 01:10:59,520
different rabbit hole but there is

1772
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:02,480
there is a close uh connection there so

1773
01:11:07,270 --> 01:11:05,360
so i believe that there is a consistent

1774
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:07,280
message and the message is

1775
01:11:10,830 --> 01:11:08,960
that we're coming to the end of homo

1776
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:10,840
sapiens i i don't want to over

1777
01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:12,719
traumatize it

1778
01:11:17,430 --> 01:11:14,560
i don't want to over dramatize it but

1779
01:11:19,669 --> 01:11:17,440
we're not going to be us anymore

1780
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:19,679
yeah we're not going to exactly so i i

1781
01:11:23,750 --> 01:11:22,159
so so what's happening is and one of the

1782
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:23,760
reasons why there may be so many

1783
01:11:27,910 --> 01:11:26,400
experiences that there is a sense a deep

1784
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:27,920
intuitive sense

1785
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:29,920
and the sense of whatever good angels

1786
01:11:34,470 --> 01:11:32,640
are out there that we have to at least

1787
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:34,480
be aware that this is what's happening

1788
01:11:38,149 --> 01:11:36,960
and that's that's what i do believe is i

1789
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:38,159
actually believe that that's what the

1790
01:11:42,310 --> 01:11:40,080
message and i believe it's a consistent

1791
01:11:43,910 --> 01:11:42,320
message that in in all spiritual

1792
01:11:45,910 --> 01:11:43,920
traditions there's a

1793
01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:45,920
it's not against materialism but it's

1794
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:48,239
saying that you're not just material and

1795
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:50,480
if you don't get the balance right then

1796
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:52,880
you will become a material entities what

1797
01:11:57,430 --> 01:11:54,400
steiner talked about

1798
01:11:59,910 --> 01:11:57,440
seeing science as as that force uh the

1799
01:12:01,590 --> 01:11:59,920
aromantic force it's a long tradition

1800
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:01,600
it's why i suppose

1801
01:12:04,709 --> 01:12:03,199
that the devil says to jesus you can

1802
01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:04,719
have all this i mean but he doesn't want

1803
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:06,640
to he he's given him the material world

1804
01:12:10,470 --> 01:12:08,719
this is the this is the

1805
01:12:12,790 --> 01:12:10,480
the story of uh

1806
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:12,800
in my view so i do think

1807
01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:14,719
that yes we're moving into a situation

1808
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:16,480
where we won't be able to interpret

1809
01:12:21,270 --> 01:12:18,880
what's happening in the world externally

1810
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:21,280
more complex more delusion more

1811
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:24,960
deception uh and uh that that's why we

1812
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:26,640
have to spiritually evolve so the good

1813
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:28,080
point is

1814
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:29,920
it's important to take these spiritual

1815
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:32,480
experiences and and to

1816
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:35,360
not dismiss them to regard them as the

1817
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:37,760
flowering the efflorescence of the

1818
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:40,080
strange world of human consciousness to

1819
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:42,159
explore them to share them to be open

1820
01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:44,880
with them to assert that consciousness

1821
01:12:49,430 --> 01:12:47,440
we are spiritual consciousness not to

1822
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:49,440
allow scientists to get away with the

1823
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,800
argument you don't have conscience you

1824
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:52,560
don't have free will it's not only an

1825
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:53,840
intellectual argument now that's

1826
01:12:58,550 --> 01:12:56,400
becoming a political policy and we have

1827
01:13:01,350 --> 01:12:58,560
to in that context

1828
01:13:03,270 --> 01:13:01,360
fight against that intellectually uh to

1829
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:03,280
to establish

1830
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:05,440
another paradigm which is open towards

1831
01:13:09,270 --> 01:13:07,120
that which explores that which is

1832
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:09,280
exploratory which is accepting of a

1833
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:10,719
range of experience which doesn't have

1834
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:13,360
to say well i know what this means but i

1835
01:13:17,750 --> 01:13:15,360
believe it's important whatever it is

1836
01:13:20,470 --> 01:13:17,760
and and to be to really

1837
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:20,480
to put the taboo word spirit again back

1838
01:13:25,350 --> 01:13:22,239
into public discourse in a way that

1839
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:25,360
people um accept as important and are

1840
01:13:30,070 --> 01:13:26,320
not

1841
01:13:31,910 --> 01:13:30,080
a very strong

1842
01:13:34,149 --> 01:13:31,920
i saw it in ireland i saw a transition

1843
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:34,159
from people that lived in a spiritual

1844
01:13:37,590 --> 01:13:36,239
universe to people that were quoting

1845
01:13:39,830 --> 01:13:37,600
young people who were quoting richard

1846
01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:39,840
dawkins and the world began to contract

1847
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:42,080
seriously and it's a serious it's a

1848
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:44,000
serious impact it's it's not a

1849
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:46,640
hypothetical

1850
01:13:51,990 --> 01:13:48,960
issue it's a very direct issue for the

1851
01:13:54,229 --> 01:13:52,000
people themselves and for society

1852
01:13:57,030 --> 01:13:54,239
i i appreciate what you're saying there

1853
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:57,040
um and in terms of the lineages and in

1854
01:13:59,270 --> 01:13:58,159
terms of

1855
01:14:00,870 --> 01:13:59,280
um

1856
01:14:01,750 --> 01:14:00,880
in spiritedness

1857
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:01,760
and

1858
01:14:13,510 --> 01:14:10,400
terms of of how we how we perceive these

1859
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:13,520
extraordinary experiences and the the

1860
01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:16,000
testimony of experiencers themselves it

1861
01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:19,760
reminds me um again of in in

1862
01:14:23,350 --> 01:14:21,280
yates uh

1863
01:14:24,709 --> 01:14:23,360
uh irish folk and fairy tales which i

1864
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:24,719
know you appreciate there's there's a

1865
01:14:30,790 --> 01:14:28,400
tale called uh the soul cages right and

1866
01:14:33,110 --> 01:14:30,800
it's and as i recall in it

1867
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:33,120
it's a tale it's it's an account of a

1868
01:14:37,270 --> 01:14:36,000
man that is is regularly brought down

1869
01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:37,280
underwater

1870
01:14:43,430 --> 01:14:41,679
into a home a mushroom cap shaped home

1871
01:14:47,189 --> 01:14:43,440
uh where he's kind of sat down at a

1872
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:47,199
table by a being or beings uh made

1873
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:50,560
intoxicated such that he feels drunk and

1874
01:14:55,350 --> 01:14:52,159
that he's he's

1875
01:14:58,390 --> 01:14:55,360
he becomes aware of these kind of large

1876
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:58,400
seemingly ceramic vessels that have been

1877
01:15:01,830 --> 01:15:01,040
that people's souls have been captured

1878
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:01,840
in

1879
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:04,560
um and then he's brought back up and so

1880
01:15:08,870 --> 01:15:06,320
there's these interesting again these

1881
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:08,880
interesting resonances you know both

1882
01:15:13,270 --> 01:15:10,800
with the idea of the soul in

1883
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:13,280
extraordinary experiences that the soul

1884
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:15,840
is somehow you know overlaid with the

1885
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:18,320
body but not necessarily of the body in

1886
01:15:21,750 --> 01:15:19,360
a way

1887
01:15:24,550 --> 01:15:21,760
and that there could be these overlaps

1888
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:24,560
between you know common features

1889
01:15:29,590 --> 01:15:27,760
uh between current situations and and

1890
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,600
these accounts that happened hundreds of

1891
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:31,600
years ago and so you know we can talk

1892
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:33,840
about you know what changes except for

1893
01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:35,520
the window dressing in some ways you

1894
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,679
know is are you being injected with

1895
01:15:40,950 --> 01:15:39,600
somebody something or are you made to

1896
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:40,960
drink some like

1897
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:43,760
fantastic wine you know yeah a very good

1898
01:15:49,669 --> 01:15:46,320
example and the angels prefigured in

1899
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:49,679
fatima gave a drink to the uh true to

1900
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:53,760
the lucia so as you would in in in a

1901
01:15:57,830 --> 01:15:56,320
catholic uh context and

1902
01:16:00,070 --> 01:15:57,840
also

1903
01:16:02,390 --> 01:16:00,080
part of the disputed

1904
01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:02,400
third secret of fatima

1905
01:16:08,550 --> 01:16:05,360
in that according to some

1906
01:16:10,630 --> 01:16:08,560
reports which are or indications

1907
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:10,640
uh it recurs

1908
01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:12,239
again and again that

1909
01:16:17,510 --> 01:16:14,880
uh the living would wish they were dead

1910
01:16:19,750 --> 01:16:17,520
and you know i mean it's it's a i don't

1911
01:16:21,510 --> 01:16:19,760
want to depress

1912
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:21,520
you know but if you say in what

1913
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:23,040
circumstance

1914
01:16:26,310 --> 01:16:24,080
would the we

1915
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,320
living wish to be dead because if he

1916
01:16:31,270 --> 01:16:28,560
wanted to be dead you know unfortunately

1917
01:16:32,790 --> 01:16:31,280
that people can do that but

1918
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:32,800
wishing to be dead would be where your

1919
01:16:37,830 --> 01:16:35,040
soul was captured so if you were put

1920
01:16:40,709 --> 01:16:37,840
into a soul cage to reinforce your point

1921
01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:40,719
j if in some way that your consciousness

1922
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:42,880
could be trapped uh then

1923
01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:45,440
your ability to escape it uh

1924
01:16:49,590 --> 01:16:47,520
becomes diminished if if that were what

1925
01:16:52,390 --> 01:16:49,600
happened and that's the the logic of

1926
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:52,400
possession as well and uh the the need

1927
01:16:57,189 --> 01:16:54,159
for personal autonomy and that a

1928
01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:57,199
spiritual autonomy so yeah so so

1929
01:17:00,870 --> 01:16:59,679
there is a persistent

1930
01:17:02,470 --> 01:17:00,880
idea

1931
01:17:05,430 --> 01:17:02,480
and i think that that that's right it

1932
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:05,440
does go back as a long tradition

1933
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:06,800
of the

1934
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:08,640
ability to give away

1935
01:17:11,990 --> 01:17:11,280
what is your soul and that's associated

1936
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:12,000
with

1937
01:17:15,270 --> 01:17:13,280
uh

1938
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:15,280
it appears in the context of making a

1939
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:17,120
deal with the devil and all those kind

1940
01:17:22,390 --> 01:17:20,560
of money hull talks about um

1941
01:17:23,830 --> 01:17:22,400
but but that

1942
01:17:25,669 --> 01:17:23,840
those type of stories they were talking

1943
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:25,679
about

1944
01:17:29,350 --> 01:17:27,840
what yates was very good at when he went

1945
01:17:31,910 --> 01:17:29,360
out and talked to the farmers was

1946
01:17:33,110 --> 01:17:31,920
getting what was a real

1947
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:33,120
a real

1948
01:17:38,229 --> 01:17:35,760
experience so the reports of really at

1949
01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:38,239
some stage or other they were often real

1950
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:39,760
experiences

1951
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:42,159
and they're recurrent so

1952
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:45,760
that justifies the the constant

1953
01:17:51,350 --> 01:17:48,239
respect in a contemporary sense and that

1954
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:51,360
it's not strange in fact it's a one of

1955
01:17:55,830 --> 01:17:53,440
the most interesting things that people

1956
01:17:57,350 --> 01:17:55,840
used to do uh that i recall or talk

1957
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:57,360
about was you know sitting around

1958
01:18:01,510 --> 01:17:59,280
telling ghost stories or mean stories

1959
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:01,520
about the other world or fairies or what

1960
01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:03,280
happened with the banshees and it's

1961
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:05,679
actually a very bonding thing so because

1962
01:18:09,830 --> 01:18:07,520
it's a human it's common human

1963
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:09,840
experience it's universal and that's

1964
01:18:14,630 --> 01:18:12,480
instead of regarding a strange it's in

1965
01:18:17,590 --> 01:18:14,640
fact an empowering thing for people to

1966
01:18:20,310 --> 01:18:17,600
share or even to open the imaginal world

1967
01:18:23,590 --> 01:18:20,320
even if it's a story that not related to

1968
01:18:26,310 --> 01:18:23,600
a person that it opens that possibility

1969
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:26,320
of reimagining the world and looking at

1970
01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:28,560
reality in a broader sense

1971
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:33,830
somebody in the chat here robert gofford

1972
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:35,920
will will probably appreciate that i'm

1973
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:37,920
bringing this up but

1974
01:18:42,950 --> 01:18:40,800
you know to bring this to uh

1975
01:18:45,750 --> 01:18:42,960
uh you followed you for a second like i

1976
01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:45,760
spent a lot of time in old documents and

1977
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:47,040
everything right

1978
01:18:50,709 --> 01:18:48,640
and kind of the way you're speaking

1979
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:50,719
reminds me of something that

1980
01:18:54,229 --> 01:18:52,880
you know i've noticed and the person i

1981
01:18:55,270 --> 01:18:54,239
mentioned robert has noticed and

1982
01:18:57,189 --> 01:18:55,280
mentioned

1983
01:18:59,189 --> 01:18:57,199
um it's

1984
01:19:02,310 --> 01:18:59,199
the the changing of

1985
01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:02,320
ufo for instance to uap or whatever

1986
01:19:06,390 --> 01:19:03,760
seems

1987
01:19:08,790 --> 01:19:06,400
uh like maybe it's not important but

1988
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,800
sometimes it seems very important and

1989
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:10,880
going back to the early records of these

1990
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:13,440
ufos american records

1991
01:19:16,229 --> 01:19:14,800
they were always

1992
01:19:17,910 --> 01:19:16,239
it was

1993
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:17,920
they were always calling it something

1994
01:19:21,350 --> 01:19:19,679
different and almost debating if it

1995
01:19:22,630 --> 01:19:21,360
should be called like an aerial

1996
01:19:25,510 --> 01:19:22,640
phenomenon

1997
01:19:27,990 --> 01:19:25,520
or an unidentified object or an

1998
01:19:30,630 --> 01:19:28,000
unconventional object like

1999
01:19:32,310 --> 01:19:30,640
the need to call whatever the phenomenon

2000
01:19:35,189 --> 01:19:32,320
is that they can't explain either an

2001
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:35,199
object or a phenomena and sometimes it

2002
01:19:39,189 --> 01:19:37,120
makes me think

2003
01:19:42,310 --> 01:19:39,199
you know maybe they're trying to relate

2004
01:19:46,709 --> 01:19:42,320
this to technology for some specific

2005
01:19:50,870 --> 01:19:48,229
yeah

2006
01:19:53,590 --> 01:19:50,880
what i suspect we're going to see is i

2007
01:19:56,790 --> 01:19:53,600
think we will see some spectacular uh

2008
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:56,800
phenomena in the skies but

2009
01:20:01,990 --> 01:19:59,280
and we may witness them but we won't be

2010
01:20:04,590 --> 01:20:02,000
able to interpret their reality

2011
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,600
and this is another issue about uh

2012
01:20:08,950 --> 01:20:06,560
incommensurability and valet and all

2013
01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:08,960
that that's certainly there but when

2014
01:20:12,390 --> 01:20:10,400
it's done by the military-industrial

2015
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:12,400
complex it's a different rate we know

2016
01:20:17,270 --> 01:20:14,480
that we're trying to do that in cuba and

2017
01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:17,280
we know that right good point

2018
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,320
so so i i i was a bit suspicious about

2019
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:23,040
the the aerial phenomena aspect is then

2020
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:25,840
it began we can begin to say well fatima

2021
01:20:30,950 --> 01:20:28,159
is you know it's it's not the object of

2022
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:30,960
the the vehicle it's the actual the

2023
01:20:34,950 --> 01:20:32,800
apparition is one of them things we can

2024
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:34,960
put it into that category with the

2025
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:36,800
category that's controlled by the

2026
01:20:40,470 --> 01:20:38,880
discourse then so i i agree with you i

2027
01:20:41,270 --> 01:20:40,480
think they should be resisted if you go

2028
01:20:43,510 --> 01:20:41,280
back

2029
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:43,520
in the irish literature it was a lot of

2030
01:20:47,270 --> 01:20:45,679
ships in the sky and that's what people

2031
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:47,280
were familiar with but that makes makes

2032
01:20:51,669 --> 01:20:49,360
sense as well and that's we see that in

2033
01:20:53,910 --> 01:20:51,679
in egypt with the vikings it was a ship

2034
01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:53,920
that you know what's wrong with that so

2035
01:20:58,070 --> 01:20:56,239
um i i think that's right i think there

2036
01:20:59,990 --> 01:20:58,080
should be a bit of resistance to these

2037
01:21:01,990 --> 01:21:00,000
terms because there's usually some

2038
01:21:04,550 --> 01:21:02,000
objective in relation to and then

2039
01:21:06,870 --> 01:21:04,560
there's also this the substitution

2040
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:06,880
effect sometimes there's a deeper reason

2041
01:21:10,790 --> 01:21:09,199
why they there's particular things chose

2042
01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:10,800
we know for example when you look at the

2043
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,639
study of intellectual property that they

2044
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:15,040
spend millions and millions on coming up

2045
01:21:19,510 --> 01:21:16,800
with words like exxon and let me say

2046
01:21:21,510 --> 01:21:19,520
well right that you know why is so so

2047
01:21:23,270 --> 01:21:21,520
significant and again

2048
01:21:25,669 --> 01:21:23,280
you know

2049
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:25,679
people don't understand about the uh how

2050
01:21:29,350 --> 01:21:27,440
valuable for example the trade mark is

2051
01:21:32,070 --> 01:21:29,360
that without all the processing thing

2052
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:32,080
for coca-cola that the value is in that

2053
01:21:37,350 --> 01:21:34,560
symbol that's sigil so similarly in

2054
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:37,360
relation to some of these things i think

2055
01:21:40,709 --> 01:21:39,120
that there may be those agenda and i'm a

2056
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:40,719
bit suspicious about so i think that

2057
01:21:45,189 --> 01:21:43,040
people should should go with what is

2058
01:21:47,189 --> 01:21:45,199
intuitive to them and not be driven by

2059
01:21:49,669 --> 01:21:47,199
certain by academic side you know that

2060
01:21:52,709 --> 01:21:49,679
that because they have they're often you

2061
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:52,719
know they're often guns for hire as well

2062
01:21:58,950 --> 01:21:56,159
uh mechanistic science yeah so i think

2063
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:58,960
people as well or experiences as well

2064
01:22:03,189 --> 01:22:01,120
can contribute towards that evolution of

2065
01:22:06,070 --> 01:22:03,199
a discourse you know i mean you have a

2066
01:22:08,629 --> 01:22:06,080
platform to begin to condition the way

2067
01:22:10,950 --> 01:22:08,639
these things are described as well

2068
01:22:12,790 --> 01:22:10,960
well especially irks me when

2069
01:22:15,669 --> 01:22:12,800
i'm looking back into the documents and

2070
01:22:18,629 --> 01:22:15,679
i find in the 60s they discussed

2071
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:18,639
changing the word from ufo to

2072
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:20,719
unidentified aerial phenomenon but

2073
01:22:24,390 --> 01:22:23,520
decided that wasn't the right time to do

2074
01:22:26,229 --> 01:22:24,400
that so

2075
01:22:28,149 --> 01:22:26,239
it's like obviously

2076
01:22:30,390 --> 01:22:28,159
uh somebody has been thinking about this

2077
01:22:32,070 --> 01:22:30,400
for a very long time

2078
01:22:33,430 --> 01:22:32,080
you know it's sorry to interrupt jay if

2079
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:33,440
you got a question

2080
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:36,080
oh no that's okay yeah i and i agree and

2081
01:22:38,790 --> 01:22:36,960
i think

2082
01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:38,800
we'd all probably agree that there's

2083
01:22:43,830 --> 01:22:41,040
that there's there's a lot

2084
01:22:46,070 --> 01:22:43,840
that it seems like a lot of these ideas

2085
01:22:47,110 --> 01:22:46,080
stay relatively consistent you know it's

2086
01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:47,120
like

2087
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,960
it's the reason why think tanks exist

2088
01:22:53,430 --> 01:22:50,880
right they can always kind of kick kick

2089
01:22:55,270 --> 01:22:53,440
the can down the road you know sometimes

2090
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:55,280
uh along along the lines that we were

2091
01:22:58,229 --> 01:22:57,199
talking about and and

2092
01:23:00,149 --> 01:22:58,239
just

2093
01:23:03,830 --> 01:23:00,159
riffing on this idea of

2094
01:23:05,350 --> 01:23:03,840
the rich history of irish lore and how

2095
01:23:07,830 --> 01:23:05,360
much how

2096
01:23:10,950 --> 01:23:07,840
how when you look at it we're really

2097
01:23:12,470 --> 01:23:10,960
looking at at early experiencer accounts

2098
01:23:14,229 --> 01:23:12,480
yeah you know there's

2099
01:23:15,830 --> 01:23:14,239
there yeah there's there's there's been

2100
01:23:18,790 --> 01:23:15,840
this kind of

2101
01:23:20,709 --> 01:23:18,800
as you've as you've said this irksome

2102
01:23:22,470 --> 01:23:20,719
idea that these are all just like

2103
01:23:24,709 --> 01:23:22,480
stories that people

2104
01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:24,719
you know say around the fire or at the

2105
01:23:28,149 --> 01:23:25,920
bar when they're getting drunk or

2106
01:23:32,229 --> 01:23:28,159
something like that but really we're

2107
01:23:34,390 --> 01:23:32,239
looking at experiencer accounts and and

2108
01:23:35,910 --> 01:23:34,400
you know they could be looked at

2109
01:23:37,030 --> 01:23:35,920
for good or for ill

2110
01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:37,040
with the same

2111
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:39,679
amount of interest or veracity as a

2112
01:23:44,149 --> 01:23:41,760
contemporary account that doesn't have a

2113
01:23:47,030 --> 01:23:44,159
picture or you know a corroborative

2114
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:47,040
element attached to it along those lines

2115
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:49,679
um do you have like a favorite story or

2116
01:23:54,870 --> 01:23:53,920
two from from irish irish fairy tales or

2117
01:23:59,030 --> 01:23:54,880
or

2118
01:24:01,750 --> 01:23:59,040
that you think is is would be

2119
01:24:04,070 --> 01:24:01,760
particularly interesting or resonant to

2120
01:24:09,910 --> 01:24:04,080
contemporary audiences of the paranormal

2121
01:24:15,370 --> 01:24:11,669
i think that's that's too big of a

2122
01:24:20,470 --> 01:24:18,390
[Laughter]

2123
01:24:21,350 --> 01:24:20,480
what's the last one you thought about uh

2124
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:21,360
yeah

2125
01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:25,520
tale how about that

2126
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:27,840
no the

2127
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:29,520
i'll put another way but there's two

2128
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:31,520
points about that one

2129
01:24:35,270 --> 01:24:33,520
the folklore is

2130
01:24:36,870 --> 01:24:35,280
the folklore

2131
01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:36,880
for example this place is a university

2132
01:24:40,709 --> 01:24:38,480
college dublin they have collections of

2133
01:24:42,550 --> 01:24:40,719
folklore and there they will actually

2134
01:24:44,870 --> 01:24:42,560
probably be very similar it would be

2135
01:24:46,070 --> 01:24:44,880
worth

2136
01:24:46,870 --> 01:24:46,080
comparing

2137
01:24:48,310 --> 01:24:46,880
with

2138
01:24:50,390 --> 01:24:48,320
some of your your contemporary

2139
01:24:52,229 --> 01:24:50,400
experiences because they have of good

2140
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:52,239
records from people who were

2141
01:24:57,110 --> 01:24:54,239
experiencers when they went around to

2142
01:24:57,830 --> 01:24:57,120
collect and that was a

2143
01:25:00,229 --> 01:24:57,840
with context

2144
01:25:01,669 --> 01:25:00,239
contacts like yates what was in and lady

2145
01:25:02,709 --> 01:25:01,679
gregory when they were going around

2146
01:25:05,189 --> 01:25:02,719
talking

2147
01:25:06,070 --> 01:25:05,199
it was the the significance of folklore

2148
01:25:08,870 --> 01:25:06,080
and and

2149
01:25:10,310 --> 01:25:08,880
the uh the first irish president at

2150
01:25:11,110 --> 01:25:10,320
douglas hyde

2151
01:25:15,669 --> 01:25:11,120
he

2152
01:25:19,590 --> 01:25:15,679
seeing a

2153
01:25:22,149 --> 01:25:19,600
a a it was a horse transform into into a

2154
01:25:23,669 --> 01:25:22,159
woman or a woman transform into a horse

2155
01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:23,679
out in the field now he became irish

2156
01:25:29,350 --> 01:25:27,679
president so i mean it's an interesting

2157
01:25:31,830 --> 01:25:29,360
record although the president has not

2158
01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:31,840
had such a powerful role in in ireland

2159
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:32,800
and

2160
01:25:35,830 --> 01:25:33,840
uh doug

2161
01:25:37,189 --> 01:25:35,840
or devalera

2162
01:25:40,629 --> 01:25:37,199
his wife

2163
01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:40,639
who was a president at that time

2164
01:25:47,430 --> 01:25:41,679
his

2165
01:25:48,870 --> 01:25:47,440
the figure that has that i regard is one

2166
01:25:49,910 --> 01:25:48,880
to look out for

2167
01:25:52,390 --> 01:25:49,920
is the

2168
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:52,400
the irish sea god

2169
01:25:55,990 --> 01:25:54,000
monon and

2170
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:56,000
he is the one that i think he's the one

2171
01:25:59,430 --> 01:25:58,560
that's coming up in relation to

2172
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:59,440
uh

2173
01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:00,960
in relation to

2174
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:03,920
my sense of of the moment uh is the one

2175
01:26:08,470 --> 01:26:06,960
and painting i i feel that is powerful

2176
01:26:09,910 --> 01:26:08,480
and he's associated

2177
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:09,920
there's a whole range of different

2178
01:26:15,189 --> 01:26:13,440
stories associated with him uh and his

2179
01:26:16,629 --> 01:26:15,199
ability to

2180
01:26:19,030 --> 01:26:16,639
usually associate with the sea and

2181
01:26:21,430 --> 01:26:19,040
emerging from the sea and the ability to

2182
01:26:24,310 --> 01:26:21,440
change form and magical

2183
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:24,320
crafts that he traveled in but i think

2184
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:26,239
he's the figure that's

2185
01:26:30,790 --> 01:26:28,560
that's relevant for some reason i i i

2186
01:26:33,110 --> 01:26:30,800
can't really i i can't really put it but

2187
01:26:36,310 --> 01:26:33,120
that's the archetypal figure manual

2188
01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:36,320
mclear that i think to pay attention to

2189
01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:37,440
uh

2190
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:40,239
is rather of that the the force which is

2191
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:42,239
relevant now i don't know why he is

2192
01:26:47,350 --> 01:26:44,400
relevant but for me

2193
01:26:50,070 --> 01:26:47,360
uh he is the the figure that's uh

2194
01:26:52,470 --> 01:26:50,080
that is important and

2195
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:52,480
there are so many stories about uh we

2196
01:26:57,030 --> 01:26:54,560
could do we could do a talk on on this

2197
01:26:59,669 --> 01:26:57,040
again but

2198
01:27:02,310 --> 01:26:59,679
it's particularly interesting about

2199
01:27:05,270 --> 01:27:02,320
the ability or the magicians that could

2200
01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:05,280
transform people into animals this is a

2201
01:27:08,310 --> 01:27:06,480
the the

2202
01:27:10,470 --> 01:27:08,320
uh consistent

2203
01:27:12,790 --> 01:27:10,480
theme uh that we have going back to the

2204
01:27:15,189 --> 01:27:12,800
greek legends and all the traditions uh

2205
01:27:16,870 --> 01:27:15,199
or the the the the children that were

2206
01:27:19,270 --> 01:27:16,880
locked into the body of swans for

2207
01:27:21,590 --> 01:27:19,280
example is a the children of lear is a

2208
01:27:23,830 --> 01:27:21,600
very significant story in the irish

2209
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:23,840
context and

2210
01:27:28,629 --> 01:27:26,400
in in relation to

2211
01:27:31,430 --> 01:27:28,639
the technology that we're facing

2212
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:31,440
uh in relation to the description of r2c

2213
01:27:35,910 --> 01:27:33,440
clark that you know

2214
01:27:38,470 --> 01:27:35,920
that magic and and high technology are

2215
01:27:41,669 --> 01:27:38,480
indistinguishable we're moving back into

2216
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:41,679
a phase where by the

2217
01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:43,920
the people or these things that the

2218
01:27:46,790 --> 01:27:45,440
magicians could do

2219
01:27:49,270 --> 01:27:46,800
can be done

2220
01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:49,280
so uh we're moving into a phase where

2221
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:52,320
people can be transformed into different

2222
01:27:57,030 --> 01:27:54,080
beings that's what we're facing now

2223
01:27:58,870 --> 01:27:57,040
technologically so so that magic is is

2224
01:28:01,510 --> 01:27:58,880
common has come on and

2225
01:28:02,870 --> 01:28:01,520
um as well the other

2226
01:28:06,229 --> 01:28:02,880
the other

2227
01:28:08,229 --> 01:28:06,239
other figure kukulen who was the warrior

2228
01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:08,239
figure uh the warrior archetype that

2229
01:28:10,950 --> 01:28:09,760
yates was very

2230
01:28:13,830 --> 01:28:10,960
very very

2231
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:13,840
uh interested in which the name cou was

2232
01:28:19,189 --> 01:28:15,840
it's it's the the hound of cullen but

2233
01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:19,199
it's the same phonetics as kukulkan in

2234
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:21,199
in south south america

2235
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:23,040
uh and he

2236
01:28:29,590 --> 01:28:25,920
defended ulster in the context of a

2237
01:28:32,629 --> 01:28:29,600
battle with a queen queen uh maeve

2238
01:28:34,790 --> 01:28:32,639
and in a context where the the

2239
01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:34,800
the red branch nights where

2240
01:28:39,350 --> 01:28:38,320
uh the ulster warriors were laid low

2241
01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:39,360
with a

2242
01:28:44,310 --> 01:28:41,679
a some kind of disease which was

2243
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,320
recurrent in seven year phases which is

2244
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:46,639
interesting so there's a mythic uh

2245
01:28:50,229 --> 01:28:48,239
there's a mythic

2246
01:28:51,990 --> 01:28:50,239
relevance to it

2247
01:28:53,510 --> 01:28:52,000
i i'm

2248
01:28:55,350 --> 01:28:53,520
i'm usually

2249
01:28:57,030 --> 01:28:55,360
more interested in the stories of

2250
01:28:58,790 --> 01:28:57,040
individuals when they tell me even

2251
01:29:00,629 --> 01:28:58,800
though they're not significant about you

2252
01:29:02,629 --> 01:29:00,639
know in the big they don't mean a lot of

2253
01:29:04,149 --> 01:29:02,639
things i talked to my aunt who's still

2254
01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:04,159
alive in london

2255
01:29:08,310 --> 01:29:06,320
and you know she has the same story she

2256
01:29:10,950 --> 01:29:08,320
told me again and again the same stories

2257
01:29:12,870 --> 01:29:10,960
because i believe they were true

2258
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:12,880
and

2259
01:29:19,750 --> 01:29:17,040
uh

2260
01:29:24,070 --> 01:29:19,760
and i remember my grandfather

2261
01:29:26,629 --> 01:29:24,080
supposedly seen the banshee and and

2262
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:26,639
another recurrent one in ireland was

2263
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:28,080
this

2264
01:29:31,590 --> 01:29:30,000
the story was that he he

2265
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:31,600
they didn't have indoor toilets in the

2266
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:33,600
cottages so you went outside you know

2267
01:29:37,510 --> 01:29:35,040
when they're having a party and that's

2268
01:29:38,629 --> 01:29:37,520
to to do what you have to do

2269
01:29:40,070 --> 01:29:38,639
and

2270
01:29:42,310 --> 01:29:40,080
one of his neighbors who we thought was

2271
01:29:44,790 --> 01:29:42,320
in england was was out there

2272
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:44,800
and he was surprised to see him

2273
01:29:50,310 --> 01:29:47,679
and he said i'll be i'll follow you in

2274
01:29:52,629 --> 01:29:50,320
in a few minutes into the the party

2275
01:29:55,110 --> 01:29:52,639
without the typical thing that people

2276
01:29:56,310 --> 01:29:55,120
used to have most of most of the time in

2277
01:29:58,709 --> 01:29:56,320
the houses

2278
01:30:00,950 --> 01:29:58,719
telling stories and music and he goes in

2279
01:30:03,910 --> 01:30:00,960
and the man wasn't there of course

2280
01:30:05,030 --> 01:30:03,920
so he had died in in england and so my

2281
01:30:06,550 --> 01:30:05,040
grandfather

2282
01:30:08,790 --> 01:30:06,560
said that story so that idea of the

2283
01:30:10,709 --> 01:30:08,800
fetch or the doppelganger or the store

2284
01:30:13,030 --> 01:30:10,719
is a recurrent one that was in people's

2285
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:13,040
experience so um

2286
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:14,159
the uh

2287
01:30:17,110 --> 01:30:15,600
i'm actually more

2288
01:30:18,709 --> 01:30:17,120
i'm interested in the individual

2289
01:30:21,350 --> 01:30:18,719
experiences because they were real

2290
01:30:23,030 --> 01:30:21,360
related yeah white people and i'm

2291
01:30:25,189 --> 01:30:23,040
interested in that archetypal one there

2292
01:30:27,270 --> 01:30:25,199
are movements so so yates was very

2293
01:30:29,750 --> 01:30:27,280
interested in cu cullen because it was

2294
01:30:32,310 --> 01:30:29,760
about the military struggle and he

2295
01:30:35,270 --> 01:30:32,320
writes in one of his poems

2296
01:30:39,030 --> 01:30:35,280
ask and whether his words had sent

2297
01:30:39,990 --> 01:30:39,040
people out to die in 1916 and whether cu

2298
01:30:42,870 --> 01:30:40,000
cullen

2299
01:30:45,189 --> 01:30:42,880
was stalking the gpo where the rebellion

2300
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:45,199
started whether his actual spirit

2301
01:30:47,910 --> 01:30:46,000
was

2302
01:30:49,990 --> 01:30:47,920
in the process where they had been

2303
01:30:52,870 --> 01:30:50,000
invoked in the process it's quite it's

2304
01:30:55,590 --> 01:30:52,880
quite interesting uh but

2305
01:30:57,350 --> 01:30:55,600
yeah again i i think modern and mclare i

2306
01:30:59,669 --> 01:30:57,360
haven't figured out why but that's the

2307
01:31:00,950 --> 01:30:59,679
the unconscious one that i see emerging

2308
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:00,960
that has some relevance there's

2309
01:31:05,910 --> 01:31:04,000
something in that story which which is

2310
01:31:08,390 --> 01:31:05,920
relevant and

2311
01:31:10,149 --> 01:31:08,400
i i can't really figure out which

2312
01:31:14,950 --> 01:31:10,159
element yes i haven't come to that

2313
01:31:20,149 --> 01:31:16,950
i mean i can't hang with a lot of this

2314
01:31:22,709 --> 01:31:20,159
uh old old school talk about uh that

2315
01:31:24,390 --> 01:31:22,719
kind of stuff as as much as i

2316
01:31:26,310 --> 01:31:24,400
would like to because i'm i'm kind of

2317
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:26,320
new to this stuff but although right

2318
01:31:29,189 --> 01:31:27,760
when we get done with this i'm gonna

2319
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:29,199
look up a couple of those names you

2320
01:31:33,030 --> 01:31:30,880
mentioned immediately

2321
01:31:34,709 --> 01:31:33,040
um but the first thing that comes to

2322
01:31:36,310 --> 01:31:34,719
mind as far as you know coming from the

2323
01:31:37,669 --> 01:31:36,320
waters a couple things

2324
01:31:39,110 --> 01:31:37,679
uh if you

2325
01:31:41,750 --> 01:31:39,120
you know one thing i'm familiar with

2326
01:31:43,669 --> 01:31:41,760
because i grew up um you know in the

2327
01:31:45,510 --> 01:31:43,679
bible basically and of course i was

2328
01:31:48,390 --> 01:31:45,520
fascinated with the book of revelations

2329
01:31:50,070 --> 01:31:48,400
and spent most of my time there um is is

2330
01:31:52,149 --> 01:31:50,080
the beast you know coming out from the

2331
01:31:54,950 --> 01:31:52,159
water living in the water and all that

2332
01:31:57,669 --> 01:31:54,960
and the other thing i think of is um you

2333
01:31:59,110 --> 01:31:57,679
know the the ufos or the uaps

2334
01:32:01,590 --> 01:31:59,120
it seems like

2335
01:32:03,030 --> 01:32:01,600
a lot of the main characters so to speak

2336
01:32:05,110 --> 01:32:03,040
are are

2337
01:32:06,229 --> 01:32:05,120
attaching these things to the water

2338
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:06,239
whether they

2339
01:32:10,950 --> 01:32:08,080
are saying they live there or hide their

2340
01:32:12,709 --> 01:32:10,960
reside there or whatever so it could be

2341
01:32:14,149 --> 01:32:12,719
a couple different reasons but those are

2342
01:32:16,310 --> 01:32:14,159
the couple things that i think of right

2343
01:32:17,350 --> 01:32:16,320
away so interesting on the other point

2344
01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:17,360
about the

2345
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:19,120
mystical perspective

2346
01:32:23,270 --> 01:32:21,600
uh light is the i believe that we are

2347
01:32:25,750 --> 01:32:23,280
light beings essentially that is

2348
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:25,760
spiritually that's what we are but water

2349
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:28,159
is the form of this the crucial form of

2350
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,960
this

2351
01:32:31,110 --> 01:32:30,239
incarnation

2352
01:32:33,750 --> 01:32:31,120
and

2353
01:32:36,229 --> 01:32:33,760
as you have in a number where light

2354
01:32:38,950 --> 01:32:36,239
meets water that that's a crucial point

2355
01:32:40,550 --> 01:32:38,960
and as as the light coming on the water

2356
01:32:43,430 --> 01:32:40,560
that's important in jewish mystical

2357
01:32:45,830 --> 01:32:43,440
traditions and sometimes even in the

2358
01:32:48,629 --> 01:32:45,840
in the baptism there's various theories

2359
01:32:50,950 --> 01:32:48,639
in in in the bible about jesus and john

2360
01:32:52,229 --> 01:32:50,960
the baptist and richard sheldrake has

2361
01:32:53,510 --> 01:32:52,239
his is

2362
01:32:55,510 --> 01:32:53,520
his opinion now i don't believe it that

2363
01:32:57,510 --> 01:32:55,520
it was a near-death experience induced

2364
01:32:59,669 --> 01:32:57,520
by holden by drowning the person you

2365
01:33:02,310 --> 01:32:59,679
know i think that's still materialistic

2366
01:33:03,990 --> 01:33:02,320
but people focus on the water but but of

2367
01:33:05,669 --> 01:33:04,000
course the heavens opened in that and we

2368
01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:05,679
presume that that was a light experience

2369
01:33:09,669 --> 01:33:07,360
so you had the two of the light and the

2370
01:33:11,350 --> 01:33:09,679
water and i think this is an interest

2371
01:33:13,669 --> 01:33:11,360
it's a very very

2372
01:33:15,510 --> 01:33:13,679
that connection is very very important

2373
01:33:17,350 --> 01:33:15,520
um it's also important in relation to

2374
01:33:18,149 --> 01:33:17,360
people's world views

2375
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:18,159
yeah

2376
01:33:21,430 --> 01:33:20,000
you experience light but then they often

2377
01:33:23,189 --> 01:33:21,440
talk about

2378
01:33:24,550 --> 01:33:23,199
which i think is is wrong in that

2379
01:33:26,870 --> 01:33:24,560
context about

2380
01:33:29,110 --> 01:33:26,880
a drop mixing in the ocean

2381
01:33:30,229 --> 01:33:29,120
in the in the post situation i don't

2382
01:33:31,750 --> 01:33:30,239
think that's

2383
01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:31,760
that that's the context i think it's

2384
01:33:35,270 --> 01:33:34,000
still the way around that

2385
01:33:36,950 --> 01:33:35,280
the light and the water so that

2386
01:33:38,870 --> 01:33:36,960
connection is

2387
01:33:40,870 --> 01:33:38,880
is very very important that nexus i

2388
01:33:42,870 --> 01:33:40,880
think there's something there some some

2389
01:33:45,189 --> 01:33:42,880
deeper connection and and when i when i

2390
01:33:48,310 --> 01:33:45,199
met jeffrey in albuquerque and we met

2391
01:33:51,270 --> 01:33:48,320
his nephew who's who works on water and

2392
01:33:53,350 --> 01:33:51,280
i was explaining the complexity of the

2393
01:33:55,430 --> 01:33:53,360
molecular sciences of water that people

2394
01:33:57,830 --> 01:33:55,440
think they know what it is but not in

2395
01:34:00,470 --> 01:33:57,840
relation to the structure the the

2396
01:34:02,870 --> 01:34:00,480
various permutations of of water and a

2397
01:34:05,750 --> 01:34:02,880
structural composition is a thing that

2398
01:34:08,709 --> 01:34:05,760
that scientists are really working on so

2399
01:34:10,629 --> 01:34:08,719
uh so the connection between the two is

2400
01:34:12,790 --> 01:34:10,639
critical and and there is there is

2401
01:34:14,550 --> 01:34:12,800
something there as well

2402
01:34:16,070 --> 01:34:14,560
it's fascinating

2403
01:34:16,950 --> 01:34:16,080
really wonderful

2404
01:34:18,390 --> 01:34:16,960
man

2405
01:34:21,430 --> 01:34:18,400
what a brilliant

2406
01:34:22,950 --> 01:34:21,440
brilliant uh show today this is great

2407
01:34:24,870 --> 01:34:22,960
yeah i've been really enjoying myself

2408
01:34:26,310 --> 01:34:24,880
thank you both for for hanging out and

2409
01:34:27,910 --> 01:34:26,320
you james i had

2410
01:34:29,189 --> 01:34:27,920
been having a wonderful time talking

2411
01:34:31,189 --> 01:34:29,199
with you

2412
01:34:34,070 --> 01:34:31,199
oh great talking john it's nice to nice

2413
01:34:35,750 --> 01:34:34,080
to to hear jay as well about your

2414
01:34:38,229 --> 01:34:35,760
contributions from

2415
01:34:39,510 --> 01:34:38,239
from yates and that uh i think they're

2416
01:34:40,870 --> 01:34:39,520
important

2417
01:34:44,070 --> 01:34:40,880
people thank you

2418
01:34:45,669 --> 01:34:44,080
to put in the this discourse to add

2419
01:34:48,229 --> 01:34:45,679
to all the other ones and all your

2420
01:34:50,310 --> 01:34:48,239
experience of sean of of of this

2421
01:34:52,470 --> 01:34:50,320
phenomenon uh which

2422
01:34:54,470 --> 01:34:52,480
um i don't know a little bit about that

2423
01:34:56,470 --> 01:34:54,480
put but but it all fits together and

2424
01:34:58,310 --> 01:34:56,480
it's it's finding how they fit together

2425
01:34:59,189 --> 01:34:58,320
is the crucial thing

2426
01:35:01,109 --> 01:34:59,199
yeah

2427
01:35:04,550 --> 01:35:01,119
absolutely well this has been an

2428
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:04,560
absolutely incredible time and i we've

2429
01:35:08,950 --> 01:35:06,960
barely touched on on

2430
01:35:10,629 --> 01:35:08,960
everything that uh james brings to the

2431
01:35:12,310 --> 01:35:10,639
table with regard to these conversations

2432
01:35:15,270 --> 01:35:12,320
even closer yeah

2433
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:15,280
absolutely i think

2434
01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:16,560
you were very well supplied with the

2435
01:35:21,350 --> 01:35:20,239
irish thing so so you did well

2436
01:35:23,430 --> 01:35:21,360
yes

2437
01:35:25,830 --> 01:35:23,440
that's what i was hoping for all right

2438
01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:25,840
this is great and um i i think it's safe

2439
01:35:30,310 --> 01:35:28,159
to say that we we absolutely would love

2440
01:35:32,149 --> 01:35:30,320
to have you back on the show james at at

2441
01:35:34,149 --> 01:35:32,159
some point you know in in the near

2442
01:35:36,070 --> 01:35:34,159
future it's certainly it'd be great to

2443
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:36,080
continue the exploration i think these

2444
01:35:41,350 --> 01:35:38,719
are ongoing issues and it's about

2445
01:35:43,109 --> 01:35:41,360
finding where the areas of pressure or

2446
01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:43,119
the area's correspondence or the

2447
01:35:46,870 --> 01:35:45,520
language or the concepts to elevate

2448
01:35:48,629 --> 01:35:46,880
because that's what i think it's crucial

2449
01:35:52,070 --> 01:35:48,639
that we begin to find

2450
01:35:53,669 --> 01:35:52,080
more robust uh common territory that we

2451
01:35:56,550 --> 01:35:53,679
can all begin to

2452
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:56,560
communicate on and also to facilitate

2453
01:36:00,550 --> 01:35:57,840
issues like

2454
01:36:02,709 --> 01:36:00,560
uh how people talk about them and and

2455
01:36:05,270 --> 01:36:02,719
how they feel comfortable with those

2456
01:36:05,990 --> 01:36:05,280
issues and to begin to elevate that and

2457
01:36:08,229 --> 01:36:06,000
and

2458
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:08,239
to recapture what what used to be

2459
01:36:13,590 --> 01:36:10,560
available to people a space and a

2460
01:36:15,590 --> 01:36:13,600
context where they could be open about

2461
01:36:17,430 --> 01:36:15,600
issues that were difficult to identify

2462
01:36:20,229 --> 01:36:17,440
that are hard to explain

2463
01:36:22,709 --> 01:36:20,239
and to approach in a way which is and

2464
01:36:24,790 --> 01:36:22,719
not to not to allow be given to the

2465
01:36:26,709 --> 01:36:24,800
military-industrial complex or the

2466
01:36:29,270 --> 01:36:26,719
academics or or whatever total leader

2467
01:36:30,550 --> 01:36:29,280
that we have to reclaim as a lived human

2468
01:36:35,109 --> 01:36:30,560
experience so

2469
01:36:40,870 --> 01:36:38,870
my new favorite person last one i had

2470
01:36:43,030 --> 01:36:40,880
this was a reference to you can't see it

2471
01:36:44,629 --> 01:36:43,040
it was the summon of knowledge and this

2472
01:36:48,229 --> 01:36:44,639
is a story uh

2473
01:36:50,149 --> 01:36:48,239
uh an irish legend uh of of a search for

2474
01:36:52,550 --> 01:36:50,159
the salmon of knowledge it's the fish

2475
01:36:55,350 --> 01:36:52,560
that that if you if you eat it it will

2476
01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:55,360
give you the uh the knowledge and again

2477
01:37:00,229 --> 01:36:57,760
you can see christian themes and that

2478
01:37:02,709 --> 01:37:00,239
but and of course the boy who is helping

2479
01:37:05,430 --> 01:37:02,719
the wise old man the cynics he's the one

2480
01:37:10,790 --> 01:37:07,750
bursting a blister gets the benefit of

2481
01:37:13,510 --> 01:37:10,800
the fish and it makes me think of

2482
01:37:15,030 --> 01:37:13,520
people like victor shelburger exploring

2483
01:37:18,870 --> 01:37:15,040
the nature of water

2484
01:37:21,109 --> 01:37:18,880
and he he began by looking at a fish in

2485
01:37:23,669 --> 01:37:21,119
water and that led him to the designs

2486
01:37:26,390 --> 01:37:23,679
for ufos that hitler

2487
01:37:29,590 --> 01:37:26,400
forced them for the nazis to design

2488
01:37:31,270 --> 01:37:29,600
these uh these first ufo

2489
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:31,280
flying saucer type

2490
01:37:36,390 --> 01:37:34,400
but he began to study water by

2491
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:36,400
looking at how a fish could swim

2492
01:37:43,430 --> 01:37:40,400
upstream and right again some so

2493
01:37:45,109 --> 01:37:43,440
high technology came from looking at a

2494
01:37:46,870 --> 01:37:45,119
simple proposition

2495
01:37:49,430 --> 01:37:46,880
and it's interesting in many ways the

2496
01:37:50,790 --> 01:37:49,440
salmon of knowledge again points to

2497
01:37:53,189 --> 01:37:50,800
the crucial

2498
01:37:54,870 --> 01:37:53,199
significance of understanding water in a

2499
01:37:56,629 --> 01:37:54,880
way that we don't understand so that may

2500
01:37:58,629 --> 01:37:56,639
be another connection that i hadn't

2501
01:38:01,430 --> 01:37:58,639
talked about the summit of knowledge

2502
01:38:04,550 --> 01:38:01,440
that is so interesting in in my studies

2503
01:38:06,310 --> 01:38:04,560
i've found that a lot of blue book and

2504
01:38:08,629 --> 01:38:06,320
everything that in recovering meteorites

2505
01:38:11,030 --> 01:38:08,639
and everything would be to study uh the

2506
01:38:12,629 --> 01:38:11,040
different lines that came up on the

2507
01:38:15,990 --> 01:38:12,639
meteorites as it traveled through our

2508
01:38:18,870 --> 01:38:16,000
atmosphere for their missile studies

2509
01:38:20,950 --> 01:38:18,880
so that is just so interesting

2510
01:38:22,629 --> 01:38:20,960
really fascinating

2511
01:38:23,430 --> 01:38:22,639
getting back to the waves absolutely

2512
01:38:24,310 --> 01:38:23,440
yeah

2513
01:38:26,790 --> 01:38:24,320
so

2514
01:38:28,629 --> 01:38:26,800
um and eric davis says think of space as

2515
01:38:31,109 --> 01:38:28,639
the ocean so i don't know if you know

2516
01:38:32,629 --> 01:38:31,119
what that is but yeah yeah really really

2517
01:38:34,629 --> 01:38:32,639
fascinating

2518
01:38:36,550 --> 01:38:34,639
all right i got to relax here had a

2519
01:38:38,070 --> 01:38:36,560
great time with you guys

2520
01:38:40,629 --> 01:38:38,080
absolutely

2521
01:38:42,390 --> 01:38:40,639
yeah thank you so much mr thanks jay

2522
01:38:44,950 --> 01:38:42,400
thanks sean appreciate the conversation

2523
01:38:47,510 --> 01:38:44,960
i look forward to yeah future and good

2524
01:38:49,109 --> 01:38:47,520
luck with your work and uh

2525
01:38:50,709 --> 01:38:49,119
as well i appreciate

2526
01:38:53,270 --> 01:38:50,719
the dialogue and

2527
01:38:56,790 --> 01:38:55,270
and anything we have my pleasure my

2528
01:38:59,109 --> 01:38:56,800
pleasure we'll do it again sooner than

2529
01:39:02,870 --> 01:38:59,119
later hopefully thank you so much have a

2530
01:39:05,590 --> 01:39:04,390
all right james

2531
01:39:07,910 --> 01:39:05,600
i gotta

2532
01:39:11,189 --> 01:39:07,920
i got gotta go eat food before i

2533
01:39:12,550 --> 01:39:11,199
collapse so yeah oh i know you must be i

2534
01:39:13,910 --> 01:39:12,560
i can't even believe that you've gone

2535
01:39:16,390 --> 01:39:13,920
this long this might be one of the

2536
01:39:17,830 --> 01:39:16,400
longest shows that you've ever done

2537
01:39:20,470 --> 01:39:17,840
yep i love it

2538
01:39:22,709 --> 01:39:20,480
which is great because uh he had james

2539
01:39:25,109 --> 01:39:22,719
had so much to give and there's so much

2540
01:39:27,270 --> 01:39:25,119
more to get from him so we're gonna have

2541
01:39:29,910 --> 01:39:27,280
to have him back i'm sure that yeah and

2542
01:39:31,910 --> 01:39:29,920
uh we'll schedule that yeah all right

2543
01:39:33,350 --> 01:39:31,920
thanks everybody yeah love you too man

2544
01:39:36,310 --> 01:39:33,360
thanks to everybody in the chat for

2545
01:39:37,510 --> 01:39:36,320
being so great and we will see you

2546
01:39:38,629 --> 01:39:37,520
next time

2547
01:39:40,780 --> 01:39:38,639
see everybody

2548
01:40:00,420 --> 01:39:40,790
see you soon